The future of oral testosterone
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@wester130 The user you quoted has no understanding of chemistry.
19-Nortestosterone / Nandrolone, has very little structural similarity to progesterone - it is structurally similar to testosterone - it is simply testosterone, that is missing a methyl group on the 18th carbon of the molecule. Both nandrolone and progesterone both have keto groups on position 3 and a double bond on carbon 4, but that's the only similarity they have.
Nandrolone is an "estrane" whereas progesterone is a "pregnane".
Progesterone:
Nandrolone
Testosterone:
Nandrolone / 19-nor testosterone and it's derivatives are extremely potent agonists of the androgen receptor and the progesterone receptor.
But the latter doesn't make 19-nor testosterone derivatives anabolic; nandrolone has an affinity to the AR 50% more than testosterone. This is why it is more anabolic.
Progesterone itself actually acts as a mild glucocorticoid; binding to & activating it's receptor. It increases the transfer of amino acids out of muscle tissue - just search up "progesteorne binding affinity to the glucocorticoid receptor" and "progesterone tryrosine amino transferase" - plenty of in vivo and in vitro studies show that that progesterone itself is a mild glucocorticoid.
In some rodents, progesterone is a precursor to testosterone and can be anabolic via that pathway, but in humans at least, progesterone doesn't increase testosterone and is not anabolic.
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Essentially, yes. But, they don’t disclose how much 4-androstenediol is in each capsule. Instead they call it something like “cyclo 4-diol”I would have to email them to find out if 4 androstenediol is even in it.
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After a couple days of research, I also found a lot of positive reviews for a newly developed hormone that does not require enzymatic conversion and that is according to many older users on AnabolicMinds forums and r/prohormones reminiscent of old school prohormones.
It’s called “3-AD”. It is 5-androstenediol with the hydroxyl on 3 at alpha position instead of beta. They call it “dehydroandrosterol”, but chemically it is what I described.
What the logs specifically mention is the muscle hardness and pumps being like oral steroids like dbol.
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@dht
To my knowledge progesterone is anti-androgenic in men and provides direct negative feedback to the HPTA in a similar way that estrogen does.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46
i found thishttps://www.stay-focused.com/en/extreme-muscle-builder/warrior-labz-4-androstenediol-50mg/60-caps
also, the google forum search gives some very interesting reading
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@dht expand if you want. To my understanding too, progesterone does seem to increase metabolism and the metabolism of glucocorticoids, but it does act as an inhibitor of LH, blocks androgen uptake into cells and has a high binding affinity to & activation of the GR - it does so less than cortisol, so endogenously producing 0.00001mg of progesterone a minute for example, could antagonise cortisol as it has a lower binding affinity and activation of the GR than cortisol, but if you are taking multiple mgs of progesterone in a single sitting ? It would act as a glucocorticoid, as shown in multiple studies in vitro and in vivo.
In rodents it does heavily convert into testosterone, which is why it is anabolic in these animals, but in humans, 100mg of progesterone is as anabolic as 1mg of testosterone in females.
So my conclusion is that it has a neutral on anabolism in humans
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i formally retract my condescending and incorrect comments about science nerds and instead am recognizing the valuable and worthwhile discussion in this thread
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@dht
@dht said in The future of oral testosterone:
it likely inhibits LH transiently (a non issue if you take androgens with it, like i suggested) while the high doses of progesterone are active, it doesn't inhibit FSH at all.
@dht said in The future of oral testosterone:
this is a non issue if you take androgens with it (like i suggested)
Yes, but neither of these things are useful for anabolism nor increasing androgens.
@dht said in The future of oral testosterone:
isn't it almost as powerful of a GR antagonist as tren per that study haidut had posted?
No. Tren itself is a weak GR antagonist, and binds to the GR with an affinity of 3% compared to dexamethasone.
Tren blocks glucocorticoids effects via another mechanism, such as reduced glucocorticoid receptor expression hence it lowers the amino transferases / the transfer of amino acids out of the muscle / catabolism
Progesterone has 8-20% of the affinity of the GR compared to dexamethasone (from what I have read and remember), and activatives it, and therefore increases the amino transferases, such as tyrosine amino transferase (TAT), increasing the transfer of amino acids out of the muscle / catabolism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacodynamics_of_progesterone
https://digicomst.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/1985_04_70.pdf
As you see progeserone increased tyrosine transferase in vitro.
And in vivo it increased the expression of tyrosine amino transferase, decreased liver protein content mildly and increased muscle proteien mildy in ewes.
This was an experiment done over 2 days with a single 50mg of progesterone injection in ewes.
I must preferace, that I don't think progesterone's catabolism is significant nor is it's anabolism but my point is that it isn't laughable that James thinks it isn't useful in promoting anabolism.
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@alfredoolivas https://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+tyrosine+aminotransferase&sca_esv=a55453b1a2e256c7&rlz=1C5CHFA_enIE1125IE1125&sxsrf=AE3TifMJdy148J2Tj4Z-xXaFpxc7CS6Aqw%3A1749071173656&ei=RbVAaLvmJ62QhbIPiIDO8AQ&oq=progesterone+t&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiDnByb2dlc3Rlcm9uZSB0KgIIADIEECMYJzIEECMYJzIKEAAYgAQYQxiKBTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIKEAAYgAQYQxiKBUiYClBBWP0BcAF4AZABAJgBMKABW6oBATK4AQHIAQD4AQGYAgKgAmjCAg0QABiABBixAxhDGIoFmAMAiAYBkgcBMqAH1BKyBwEyuAdowgcDMi0yyAcM&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
A google search, shows lots of studies show progesterone alone increases tryosine amino transferasee, but blocks the stimulation of tyrosine amino transferase when adminstered with corticosteroids.
So endougenously it may act as a partial agonist of the GR, blocking cortisol, a stronger agonist, effects, but when delivered in high quanitities, it may act as a GR as it binds to and activates the GR.
For example; we produce 5-15mg of cortisol a day, and therefore per hour, we produce around 0.5mg of cortisol an hour. If you endogenously produce 0.1mg of progesterone it would act as a functional antagonist to cortisol, but adminstering 15mg of progesterone exogenously would cause progesterone to act as an agonist independently.
Messy stuff, I wouldn't consider exogenous progesterone pro anabolic
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@dht
What role is progesterone supposed to play exactly? If you're using it as an AI, why not just use aromasin or proviron or masteron instead?
I don't think you're correct that it prevents shutdown and in fact I think it directly causes it.
I don't think progesterone is a male hormone. It's for women. We have DHT. We need it for sure in small quantities but I would not be looking to raise it much as a man
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@dht I respect your opinion but Haidut is not a bodybuilder. Show me the athletes/bodybuilders who followed this progesterone advice and I will take it more seriously. Just because he said it doesn't make it true.
As far as I am concerned, it is at best a theory with some evidence in rats or mice. There is plenty of evidence against it.
Consider this study which shows argues that progesterone causes gyno in hyperthyroid men who again according to Haidut have LOW estrogen
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3335607/
I largely agree that excess aromatization is probably what largely contributes to HPTA shutdown.
But the solution I think should be low dose test, an AI if necessary, and plenty of DHT or Mast.
I guess I neither see the need for elevating progesterone in men nor do I see any evidence that it actually works in practice. I am more than happy to believe in it if people want to come forward with their actual progress and experience but until then I'm skeptical of it.
Even Peat would sometimes say on podcasts/radio shows that 20 mg progesterone for men could give them a numb penis so I think he understood the risks.
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