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    /BBG/ - BODYBUILDING GENERAL

    The Gym
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    • B
      BeanSprouts
      last edited by

      I was a big fanboy for Mentzer for a few years. I have two books from him. There are a few issues with his theories. The big one is that the model of training adaptation he uses is severely outdated, even at the time of his HD1 book. The model it uses is the one-factor theory, which was created by a psychiatrist, if I recall correctly, and it basically suggests that you give a stimulus, recover, adapt, and repeat. This suggests a totally linear progression. This is inaccurate, and the actual one we use is a two-factor model that includes the "fitness and fatigue" variables that explain why the more you practice something, the better you get. We know this is true, and we know people are overtrained at the point of their peak performance, in any sport, really.

      Two-factor model:
      47b11626-590f-4583-8c16-de2d3e9c8559-image.png

      The relevance of this is that he uses the incorrect one-factor model as justification for his pretty hard-core rest periods, like hitting the chest once every 14 days. There's no evidence that suggests it takes this long to recover. He has no proof of this working either, as it was all "phone clients" claiming to make massive gains on that system. I'm not suggesting he's a liar though, as magazines showed him using earlier Heavy Duty methods on himself and clients with great success. Emphasis on "earlier" though as the only actual person I saw document their progress on the "consolidated" routine, got weaker and smaller by doing it.

      The other thing is that slow reps make you weaker. The only study comparing the two found that maximal strength (1RM) was way higher for people training at normal rep speeds. The slow reps only made them slightly better at moving a weight slowly. There is also physiology (the size principle) that shows that you can't "trick" the body into thinking a weight is heavier than it is just by moving it slowly. Increasing stimulus is better done by increasing weight or reps. It could be good for people with injuries who are using perfectly greased machines with no sticking points, but that doesn't apply to most of the people following his work.

      I do like him though; recovery is where growth occurs, and he's right about that. Genetics are also the prime determinant for your gains. People have gotten big doing every system under the sun. I've come to the conclusion the best routines are just the normal 1x a week split routine or a 2-3x full body routine. The routine should be what you want to do because it really won't make a difference down the road. The workouts being difficult is what matters.

      H Hope_PeadH 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • The New SunT
        The New Sun @Peatriot
        last edited by

        @Peatriot I like doing Arnold workouts, the first time I did his arm workout I had lots of positive results, this was after a hiatus as well.

        https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/how-arnold-built-his-shoulders-and-arms.html

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • xyitX
          xyit @The New Sun
          last edited by

          @The-New-Sun fantastic where did you source?

          The New SunT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • H
            hootchy @BeanSprouts
            last edited by

            @BeanSprouts I did HIT style for my upper body for 6 months. Gained as much size as a regular routine but much less time at the gym. So I preferred it in that respect.

            Do bodybuilding outside as much as possible. Compliment with pylometrics and sprints and sports.

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • sphenoidS
              sphenoid
              last edited by

              The three biggest factors in building muscle are mechanical tension, motor unit activation, and protein synthesis.

              Mechanical Tension
              -The faster a contraction, the less tension a given muscle cell experiences; the slower a contraction the more tension it experiences (force-velocity relationship)
              -Slow concentric contractions produce the most tension, eccentrics produce relatively little
              -Lighter resistance can induce similar tension to heavier resistance when done slowly

              Motor Unit Activation (not metabolic fatigue)
              -High intensity; 1-2 repetitions from failure
              -Fewer repetitions with heaver resistance are easier at accomplishing this but higher reps can works as well (peripheral fatigue)
              -Avoid excess lactate accumulation as this does not signal muscle growth
              -Long periods of rest in between sets to replenish creatine phosphate and maximize motor unit recruitment while limiting glycolysis

              Protein Synthesis
              -Limit excess muscle damage as it is counterproductive to muscle gain (junk volume, too many eccentric contractions, reliance of glycolysis)
              -Optimize anabolic to catabolic ratio (lower stress, increase metabolism)
              -Eat enough carbohydrates/protein

              The Good DoctorT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • The Good DoctorT
                The Good Doctor @sphenoid
                last edited by

                @sphenoid Lovley write up. Last two sections emphasizes why bioenergetics are crucial. I’ve done online coaching for years and 80% of advice I have ever given in regards to diet ended up being “eat more.”

                Muscle is a very, very high energy tissue to maintain and grow. Having metabolic inefficiencies is like putting out a net into a stream where the desired end result is having the highest possible number of fish at the end of the stream.

                sphenoidS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • sphenoidS
                  sphenoid @The Good Doctor
                  last edited by

                  @The-Good-Doctor Yes most people's metabolisms are too crippled to build muscle effectively, especially when they try to run a mainstream program that just adds fuel to the fire. Increases in glycolysis/lactate, stupid amounts of muscle damage, and plenty of CNS fatigue just drives them into the ground more.

                  The Good DoctorT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • ?
                    A Former User @The New Sun
                    last edited by

                    @The-New-Sun I have been on andro for a year now. It won’t really help a whole ton in building muscle since it is downstream of DHT. But the other effects you have described are accurate. It will also masculinze your face more over time too.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Hope_PeadH
                      Hope_Pead @BeanSprouts
                      last edited by

                      Two-factor model:
                      47b11626-590f-4583-8c16-de2d3e9c8559-image.png

                      Is this a merchant

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • ValV
                        Val @xyit
                        last edited by

                        @xyit just an anecdote, I experimented with 200mg twice a day for two weeks for test boosting purposes and experienced no effects.

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • The New SunT
                          The New Sun @xyit
                          last edited by

                          @xyit idealabs

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • The Good DoctorT
                            The Good Doctor @sphenoid
                            last edited by

                            @sphenoid Yes, I’ve been there before. Miserable state, that can go on for a long time unrealized when you bank on willpower/stress hormones. Hope to save many from this fate!

                            Τ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • bruhB
                              bruh @Hitler
                              last edited by bruh

                              @Hitler

                              do what he did

                              So lots of volume?

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • bradB brad moved this topic from Bioenergetics Discussion on
                              • ?
                                A Former User
                                last edited by A Former User

                                What do you guys think about training in the higher rep ranges (50-100 reps), with ligher weights; in the style of Eugene Sandow's Light Dumbell System or Nucleus Overload?

                                Youtube Video

                                Personally, when I started training higher reps with resistance bands, I couldn't go back to the old way. Was inspired by this channel to try resistance bands:
                                Youtube Video

                                Also, I recommend anyone to try the chest expander: a great workout for the traps and shoulders.

                                Youtube Video

                                HitlerH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • HitlerH
                                  Hitler @A Former User
                                  last edited by

                                  @nikola I won't lie to you, you must be out of your mind to be doing 50-100 reps

                                  ? 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • ?
                                    A Former User @Hitler
                                    last edited by

                                    @Hitler hahah, maybe 100 reps was a bit of an exaggeration. But only 1 rep, 50 reps with light weight, 2 times a week.

                                    JulofEnochJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • JulofEnochJ
                                      JulofEnoch @A Former User
                                      last edited by

                                      @nikola

                                      I did a modified Sandow's after I saw GEBookworm's video. The first section is good for developing mind-muscle control, getting a pump if you'd like, working muscles for the first time, or taking it easy from an injury(as I was with wrist issues). There's a reason why it's followed up by progressive weight training- the low-CNS stimulus high-rep familiarizes various movement patterns and builds the foundation for the "growth" portion which comes from the progressive lifting.

                                      I wasn't meticulous with my measurements, mostly just trying to move, but I did find it easier than many other workout programs because almost no one ever uses weights below 10lbs, so there's always some available.

                                      Greift nur hinein ins volle Menschenleben! Ein jeder lebt's, nicht vielen ist's bekannt, und wo ihr's packt, da ist's interessant.

                                      Ray Peat first-ever interview(July 1987 on UofO Student Radio)

                                      ? 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • S
                                        saturnmissiles @xyit
                                        last edited by

                                        @xyit tongkat made my test go from about 850 to 1100ng (which could just be a normal fluctuation) but honestly I don’t recommend the stuff at all as it also made my prolactin go from 11 to 19. Androsterone (tries with the usual preg/dhea combinations) is far more effective with what I think is a semi-similar effect (AI via DHT) but like all herbs TA does so through a far more complex and messy mechanism. Cistanche is a bit better and felt like it had other benefits (sleep and digestion) but has the same tolerance effects you would see from any herbal med.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • ?
                                          A Former User @JulofEnoch
                                          last edited by

                                          @JulofEnoch oh, I see, it teaches you how to use certain muscles and correct technique.
                                          What about combining high rep, and low rep progressive weight traning? For example, on monday high rep, friday low rep.

                                          I saw a comment on a video by GEbookwork talking about this type of workout:
                                          Slika1.jpg
                                          Slika2.jpg
                                          Slika3.png

                                          JulofEnochJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • JulofEnochJ
                                            JulofEnoch @A Former User
                                            last edited by

                                            @nikola

                                            To be honest, I'm not too familiar with any research or discussions about mixing high-rep and low-rep days. I guess my question would be: what is the desired outcome of such a split?

                                            If it's hypertrophy, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't be consistent in moderate-to-high reps through the week.

                                            If strength training, I don't see why you wouldn't be consistent in low-to-moderate reps through the week.

                                            The best reasons I could think for splitting:
                                            a) you have time constraints and one of your workouts is pragmatically shorter than the other
                                            b) you're using the high-rep day as a moment to boost your average exertion over the week(adding general low-level physical load)
                                            c) most important: that type of split gives you consistency and its easy for you to do continually.

                                            The best routine is the one that you can continue doing- results vary from changes in that routine, but you'll never achieve good or great results with inconsistency.

                                            I'm not sure how familiar you are with weightlifting, but don't get too caught up in what other people say their routines are and their results; you have no idea what that random YouTube commentor is doing in their life.

                                            Pick a routine and see it through to the end.

                                            Greift nur hinein ins volle Menschenleben! Ein jeder lebt's, nicht vielen ist's bekannt, und wo ihr's packt, da ist's interessant.

                                            Ray Peat first-ever interview(July 1987 on UofO Student Radio)

                                            ? 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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