Vitamin E, A, B3 and T4 are androgenic and potentiates the effects of testosterone. Estrogen, aldosterne & cortisol may do the opposite.
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Pretty historic studies. But there are at least 3 which reinforce that definitely vitamin E, as well as A, B3 and definitely T4 are androgenic & potentiate the effect of testosterone.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01099740
"It is clear from the above Table that vitamin E produced a significant
increase in the seminal vesicle weight of castrated male rats...It is noticed that vitamin E acts synergistically with testosterone in increasing the seminal vesicle weights of castrated male rats than that of the
control group receiving testosterone alone. "In this study, a human equivelent dose of around 25mg testosterone and 2000IU vitamin E (not specified which isomer/ester and a large dose but definitely not unheard of), increased seminal weights by around than 50%, compared to testosterone's growth alone.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01112652
"Vitamins E and A possess androgenic property and act synergistically with testosterone on increasing the seminal vesicle weight of castrated male rats. "Notably, vitamin A was by far the most androgenic and synergistic with tesosterone. However, a human equivelent dose of 102400IU of vitamin A was used.
Repost from Haidut, about B3 being androgenic, at least in vitro.
https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/niacinamide-is-androgenic-and-increases-dht-effects-signaling.9892/The studies kept on referencing an author by the name of "F Caridroit". I searched vigorosuly for this author. During the process, I stumbled across letters from 1792!, describing how a researcher discovered electricty in nerves and animals!
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5110092/?page=1But after selecting dates from the 1940s, I found Mr Caridroit's work along with his colleagues. Well "found" is an overstatement. There is no doi link to his work, so I can't find the full text, but the previous two studies referenced a study by Cairdroit from 1942, that demonstrates vitamin E lowers the minimum effective dose of testosterone needed.
I found the title only: "LA VITAMINE E ABAISSE LE SEUIL DE RÉPONSE DE LA CRÊTE DU CHAPON A L'HORMONE MALE / Vitamin E lowers the response threshold of the capon's comb to male hormones."
So we are going off of titles here. If anyone has access to CABI digital library, access to these studies would be appreciated.
However, high doses of thyroxine can increase testosterone's androgenic effects by 4 - 6x!
"The favourable action of thyroxine on the development of the seminal vesicles of castrated mice treated with testosterone propionate."
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6705358/"Increased response on the chicken comb to androgens after combined administration of thyroid extract and theophylline"
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00796155"Blivaiss presented data showing a greater increase in growth of combs of Brown Leghorn capons and thyroidectomized males following the simultaneous administration of thyroxine and testosterone propionate than with either alone."
https://doi.org/10.1210/endo-48-3-2571/4 to 1/6th of testosterone is necessary with thydoxine
Desoxycorticosterone (precursor to aldosterone & corticosterone) opposes testosterone's effects:
"TESTOSTERONE alone had the greatest effect in restoring the wt. of the seminal vesicles. When it was combined with desoxycorticosterone the seminal vesicle wt. was intermediate between that produced by the 2 hormones separately."
https://www.cabidigitallibrary.org/doi/full/10.5555/19430100281
https://eurekamag.com/research/043/416/043416952.php
"Inhibitory action of cortisone on testosterone-induced growth of the ventral prostate, the dorsolateral prostate, the coagulating glands and the seminal vesicles in castrated adrenalectomized rats""Cortisone on the contrary seemed to counteract the effect of testosterone. The result can be considered against the following facts. Progesterone, which has a weak androgenic effect stimulates the growth of the prostate, the seminal vesicles and the levator ani muscle..."Furthermore, progesterone has been found to
reduce the uptake of 3H-testosterone by the accessory reproductive organs of castrated male rats"The WW2 french endocrinology lore (probably made for the Nazis XD) goes crazy, I am certain I will find more gems in the upcoming days.
https://www.revuedesdeuxmondes.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/91f648375e742b046e49ef7908b9f1aa.pdf -
These are the types of studies peat was reading probably which is crazy.
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If the rats received 100000IU HED A then they must have suffered from vit A poisoning. Right?
Also, the RPF link is broken.
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@engineer https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/niacinamide-is-androgenic-and-increases-dht-effects-signaling.9892/
It was a 10 day study. I don't think 100k vitamin A is that crazy too. T + A was 4x more androgenic. I think lower doses would be androgenic too of course because of this.
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@alfredoolivas said in Vitamin E, A, B3 and T4 are androgenic and potentiates the effects of testosterone. Estrogen, aldosterne & cortisol may do the opposite.:
I don't think 100k vitamin A is that crazy too.
This furthers the idea that the "boring" old vitamins are extremely powerful in high enough doses. However, a lot of people think the vitamins are boring probably because they're only used to taking them in in RDA amount, which by definition is the bare minimum to not die of a deficiency, and it's usually far away from these studies with much higher doses.
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@engineer Yes would love to try out mega doses of the fat soluble vitamins but their long half life scares me from doing it lol. It would take like a year to clear out the dosages because they are so fat soluble lol.
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It could be worth it. 1 year of worse health or I find a cornucopia of health.
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@alfredoolivas if it makes you feel better I have taken 25k/d IU of beta carotene for a year+ and am feeling zero bad effects from it
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@engineer W. But why? Living in florida makes you tanned, I think the addition of beta carotene would make you look like Trump XD
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@alfredoolivas I actually started taking beta carotene before I knew anything about supplements much less Ray Peat, it was my mom who got it because it was cheap and looked effective.
My skin doesnt look orange at all but does change in tone drastically depending on the lighting:
So, it's possible to take in that much and be fine, but that's only me.
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@engineer Nice. Vitamin A seems really important in the androgenic system. Along with 14mg of Iron, it was as effective than 5mg of oxandrolone or 25mg of T at increasing the height of children, at only 4000IU a week!
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@alfredoolivas Unfortunately I have to dissent again because my height is below "average", possibly due to high estrogen. Thankfully that's no longer an issue thanks to Peating but I always wonder what would be different if I had known about RP back then.
Was high estrogen not an issue for the children receiving T in that study?
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@engineer it was 100mg a month which would create a huge spike and an uneven distribution of testosteorne throughout the month, because testosterone cypionate was used. So 72mg of elemental testosterone would give a very rough amount of maybe 2.4mg ot T delivered a day, with a lot more being delivered at the first few weeks.
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@alfredoolivas So a product combining T + A + E + t4 + t3 would give a good kick in the pants, would it?
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@jamezb46 yes and adding 10mcg of melanotan II would be super effective
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/9088/microgram-doses-of-melanotan-ii-may-increase-the-androgenic-effects-of-testosterone -
@alfredoolivas Or Pansterone + Kuinone + Androsterone on you-know-where in addition to A + E + T3 + T4 + melanotan II?
Just imagine the possibilities
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@engineer I assume you mean the scrotum. That's not a great idea, because it would increase androgen sensitivty of the testicles.
You don't want your testicles to be androgen sensitive because that would increase the negative feedback loop T & DHT, has on T production, lowering T production.
I saw that you apply androsterone there? I think this is counterproductive. It would increase local DHT in your testicles, reducign the amount of T produced by them.
You want your testicles to have sensitive LH receptors, not androgen receptors.@jamezb46 correct?
If you mean on your penis? great idea. Especially considering the vitamins are fat soluble and may gather there, extending their half lives on the penis.
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@alfredoolivas said in Vitamin E, A, B3 and T4 are androgenic and potentiates the effects of testosterone. Estrogen, aldosterne & cortisol may do the opposite.:
I saw that you apply androsterone there? I think this is counterproductive. It would increase local DHT in your testicles, reducign the amount of T produced by them.
You want your testicles to have sensitive LH receptors, not androgen receptors.Are you saying that the goal should be to bring DHT in the scrotum to the minimum needed? If so, does that mean you have to constantly monitor and adjust androsterone/AIs elsewhere to fine tune the DHT/estrogen balance? This is getting complicated now because estrogen is a more powerful negative HPG trigger than DHT.
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@engineer I wouldn't call it a goal, because high endogenous production of T would cause scrotal T+DHT to be high. But there is no benefit of adding androgenic or estrogenic substances to the testicles. The precursor steroids at least pregnenolone has shown to be protective. Not sure what you mean about the DHT/estrogen balance.
