moggy chicken log
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I've upped my salt consumption as high as possible over the last few years, and I've never had edema.
That is really good.
The breads or other ingredients could be raising HGH and estrogen, the edema hormones.
That is theory, whereas salt has been proven to increase water mass lol.
The first thing I would look at is promoting progesterone and steroid synthesis -- chow down the egg yolks my man
Doesn't move the needle.
Peat's whole thing is that salt consumption is at an all time low.
Why would it be at an all time low???? As you said salt tastes good and as you know, you build a tolerance for it.
"Median daily salt intake ranges between 7.8 g and 11.8 g (according to age group) in US men, 5.8 g and 7.8 g in US women.
Peats observations were done on 1.) healthy populations very different to our own health. In the 1800s and 1900s.
2.) hospital controlled diets different from western ones- electrolytes and carbohydrate Intake are monitored in these settings and are never excessive. They stick to the reccomended daily intakes and allowances.
Furthermore, his whole theory is that
1.) more salt in the tubules of the kidneys reduces renin
2.) less renin causes aldosterone production to be reduced in the adrenals
3.)less aldosterone inhibits sodium resorption, increaisng it's excretion
But he contradicts himself with this line of thinking lol
" 1.) more salt in the tubules of the kidneys reduces renin"
It's too late already. The excess sodium has caused Intrastitular fluid has increased to the point that osmotic stress has dampened renin.
"2.) less renin causes aldosterone production to be reduced in the adrenals
Yes that has been proven.
3.)less aldosterone inhibits sodium resorption, increaisng it's excretion, causing a net negative of sodium balance"
Okay so basically this is pure theory to begin with and not only theory, it's a big reach!
Peat saying that this reduction in aldosterone is enough to increase net sodium excretion goes against
- A shared global expierence of salt induced water retention since the begininng of time
2.2 centuries worth of research in humans, animals and cells. - The theory that having more sodium in the diet increase sodium in the extracellular fluid lol.
What makes Peat go against this? observations were done on 1.) hospital diets very different to our own. 2.) animal studies 3.) a much more healthy population.
There is 100% a golden spot lol. But fucking not being able a meal without getting 1000mg of sodium is not good! Usually it's closer to 2g! Makes life a lot harder.
Probably yeah 5g is a good spot. Bit more or less is fine. I think 5-6g can be done non orthorexically. IDK. I'll try that number. I am currently making my own bread and using a mix of cheese curd rahter than straight cheese to reduce sodium.
- A shared global expierence of salt induced water retention since the begininng of time
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Look guys I know you guys think I’m a vegan crack pot, (I ate 200 grams of animal protein yesterday), but when you can’t eat a portion of cheese, ham and some bread without getting almost 4 grams of salt on top of everything else you had that day YES NIGGA THEY ARE POISONING YOU.
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@LetTheRedeemed said:
The breads or other ingredients could be raising HGH and estrogen, the edema hormones.That is theory, whereas salt has been proven to increase water mass lol.
Which part? That bread could raise estrogen? Because estrogen and HGH have been proven to retain water. Estrogen and HGH can increase capillary permeability. if bread is slowing gut motility and feeding bacteria, it can raise endotoxin, which does increase estrogen -- this is a case by case basis of course.
@LetTheRedeemed said:
The first thing I would look at is promoting progesterone and steroid synthesis -- chow down the egg yolks my manDoesn't move the needle.
You don't think there is a cumulative effect to consuming thousands of milligrams of vit A, D, E, K, zinc, copper, cholesterol, etc, over the course of a year?
Peat's whole thing is that salt consumption is at an all time low.
Why would it be at an all time low???? As you said salt tastes good and as you know, you build a tolerance for it.
"Median daily salt intake ranges between 7.8 g and 11.8 g (according to age group) in US men, 5.8 g and 7.8 g in US women.
Peats observations were done on 1.) healthy populations very different to our own health. In the 1800s and 1900s.
I feel like that's the point, become healthy, and sodium has some cool benefits. obviously don't only eat sodium, or consume it past desired levels.
google says salt consumption in the west peaked in the 19th century at 18g per day.
China consumes 11g per day (and they're smaller).
Google:
Edema Trigger / Condition All-Cause Lower Limb Edema (General prevalence in older adults)
19.0% – 20.0% of the US population.
~8.4% – 9.5% of the Chinese population.Either it's nuance, or the answer to the great salt debate is to be Chinese.
when i asked google why, it said that chinese people salt food at home which is part of a healthy balanced diet. when i asked harder, it said there are many more metabolic conditions in the US, and sodium consumption isn't the standalone cause of edema, but contributes to metabolic conditions that contribute to capillary leakiness and cell wall weakness -- this is where Ray Peat would say prog, preg, vit D, calcium, and thyroid are useful to balance HGH and estrogen that get out of control w/ metabolic conditions.
"The increase of adrenalin, if caused by a deficiency of sodium, is one of the factors that can increase blood pressure; if the tissues's glycogen stores are depleted, the adrenalin will mobilize free fatty acids from the tissues, which tends to inhibit energy production from glucose, and to increase leakiness. After I had read Tom Brewer's work on preventing or curing preeclampsia with added salt, I realized that the premenstrual syndrome involved some of the features of preeclampsia (edema, insomnia, cramps, hypertension, salt craving), so I suggested to a friend that she might try salting her food to taste, instead of trying to restrict salt to "prevent edema." She immediately noticed that it prevented her monthly edema problem. For several years, all the women who tried it had similarly good results, and often mentioned that their sleep improved. I mentioned this to several people with sleep problems, and regardless of age, their sleep improved when they ate as much salt as they wanted. Around that time, several studies had shown that salt restriction increases adrenalin, and one study showed that most old people on a low sodium diet suffered from insomnia, and had unusually high adrenalin. When they ate a normal amount of salt, their adrenalin was normalized, and they slept better." - Ray Peat, edema-heart-failure-hypertension-sarcopenia
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@alfredoolivas I'd never call you a vegan!
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Which part? That bread could raise estrogen? Because estrogen and HGH have been proven to retain water. Estrogen and HGH can increase capillary permeability. if bread is slowing gut motility and feeding bacteria, it can raise endotoxin, which does increase estrogen -- this is a case by case basis of course.
Yeah but there is ZERO proof that bread raises these things. You are piecing isolated claims together, and claiming a few pieces of bread does this, and then because of these changesto the body, estrogen and HGH rise?
It is pure theory.China consumes 11g per day (and they're smaller).
Google:
Edema Trigger / Condition All-Cause Lower Limb Edema (General prevalence in older adults)
19.0% – 20.0% of the US population.
~8.4% – 9.5% of the Chinese population.These guys eat plenty of bread.
but contributes to metabolic conditions that contribute to capillary leakiness and cell wall weakness
Sodium activates aldose reductase too. I think high carb diets / being insulin resistant leads there to be aldose reductase to be elevated too. When you add salt it can worsen things. Back in the time, people were a lot more insulin sensitive and thus could deal with this. But now, not so much. Shown by world wide research.
I really can't understand how you throw away the shared expierence of millions (realisitcally if you tallied millions of people), and a centuries worth of research, by unconnected authors, globally, for a Ray Peat quote lol.
It's pretty clear, looking at studies and a globally shared experience, that it causes odema in excess (which is what you suggest the intake should be) whilst being anti stress.
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“You don't think there is a cumulative effect to consuming thousands of milligrams of vit A, D, E, K, zinc, copper, cholesterol, etc, over the course of a year?“
You can eat tastier foods and get all the odd things lol. Without triggering a PUFA phobia
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“You don't think there is a cumulative effect to consuming thousands of milligrams of vit A, D, E, K, zinc, copper, cholesterol, etc, over the course of a year?“
You can eat tastier foods and get all the odd things lol. Without triggering a PUFA phobia
I don't understand what you mean, of course this was in reference to the general more nutrient dense foods, not just eggs. I should've clarified: I believe in the Peat trifecta of eggs/shellfish/liver.
I believe that over the course of months and years, the level of nutrients consumed by eating these things weekly (I eat them daily + thyroid), will have a positive effect on any number of metabolic events in the body.
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@alfredoolivas said:
Yeah but there is ZERO proof that bread raises these things. You are piecing isolated claims together, and claiming a few pieces of bread...
It is pure theory.These guys eat plenty of bread.
Bread was just an example of things that can cause issues. I also eat a clean bread (well before I started a fruit diet).
but contributes to metabolic conditions that contribute to capillary leakiness and cell wall weakness
Sodium activates aldose reductase too. I think high carb diets / being insulin resistant leads there to be aldose reductase to be elevated too. When you add salt it can worsen things. Back in the time, people were a lot more insulin sensitive and thus could deal with this. But now, not so much. Shown by world wide research.
Sounds reasonable
I really can't understand how you throw away the shared expierence of millions (realisitcally if you tallied millions of people), and a centuries worth of research, by unconnected authors, globally, for a Ray Peat quote lol.
It's pretty clear, looking at studies and a globally shared experience, that it causes odema in excess (which is what you suggest the intake should be) whilst being anti stress.
I don't think I throw it away, I just look for context. One of my fave quotes by Peat was something like "everything in context" which is more of a law of wisdom than a pithy quote.
Contextually, edema was found in far higher levels amongst urban centers and sailors in the 1600-1800s. Here's the first context clue -- leading me to ask, why?
Google AI:
"Yes, historically, edema (historically referred to as "dropsy") was significantly worse and far more prevalent in sailors than in the general civilian population.During the Age of Sail (roughly the 16th through the 19th centuries), sailors suffered from severe, widespread edema at catastrophic rates.""The 17th and 18th Centuries (Peak Diagnosis Era)The diagnosis of dropsy [edema] peaked significantly in urban Europe during the 1600s and 1700s. As populations flooded into crowded, poorly sanitized European cities, cases of organ failure and severe malnutrition spiked. In cities like London, dropsy routinely topped the official "Bills of Mortality" (public death records), accounting for hundreds of urban deaths every year. It affected everyone from the impoverished to royalty—for instance, historical records show British monarchs like Queen Elizabeth I suffered from bouts of it."
"Nitrates (in the form of saltpeter, or potassium nitrate) became universally included alongside salt for meat curing in Europe between 1600 and 1750, most likely around 1700."
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@LetTheRedeemed now ask Gemini the average salt intake during that time!
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@alfredoolivas are you referencing higher sodium consumption in the late medieval/early modern period of 1600-1700s? unusually high numbers like daily 40 grams, and daily 100 grams in Sweden, are because of people using consumption data of salt, but that's innacurate, because it takes a whole nation's sodium import, when the vast majority was used for preservation, and not consumed. It's probably impossible to consume much more than 12 grams of salt a day for an extended period, and I even question the 18 grams numbers thrown around about 1800s Western nations, because China has the same economic number of total consumption per person, but then at the individual eating level it's something like 10 grams on avg.
What makes china cool, is they didn't really undergo an industrial-liberal health and food revolution like America did, so they're probably eating more consistently according to what the avg agrarian society ate for thousands of years (meat in every form, offal, grain, salt to taste, sugar to taste, seasonal fruits, boiled veg, etc).
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