Genetically Vit A Deficient.
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@MostlyCurious Geneti-what now??
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@CO3 Genetically, I have genetic defects that prevent me from converting beta carotene into retinol. It's also hard for my body to utilize retinol.
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@MostlyCuriou is that some kind of insect?
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@CO3 Can't tell if you're trolling me or not but here's a dictionary definition for you:
genetically
adverb
US /dʒəˈnet̬.ɪ.kəl.i/ UK /dʒəˈnet.ɪ.kəl.i/In a way that relates to genes (= units of DNA received by an animal or plant from its parents) :
The brain's response to pain is, at least in part, genetically determined.
Children born from embryo donation are not genetically related to either their mother or father.
In other words I have genetic differences that I inherited from my father that prevent my body/liver from working with vitamin A / beta carotene the same way other people's do.
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@MostlyCurious who gave you this idea
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@CO3 It's not an "idea" it's something that I am living with and have confirmed through genetic testing. It's also something that's common in my culture, so much so we're discussed in the study I linked above.
We even have to be really careful during pregnancy as the low vitamin A levels often lead to Mathew Woods syndrome.
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Is this similar to the genetic inability of caucasians to convert beta carotene to vit A?
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@AltarandThrone I'd have to see what SNPs are related to see if it's the same but seems to be the same end results regardless of SNPs.
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@MostlyCurious ok. I know nothing about genetics heh
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@AltarandThrone Learning about and digging into my own genetics has had a huge impact on my ability to pinpoint health issues.
I started with simply uploading an ancestry DNA file to self decode.
That service is great for beginners (I feel anyhow) because it automatically shows you a good amount of issues you may have like MTHFR or histamine issues etc.
From there I began looking into my specific culture(s) documented issues and was able to search for specific genes/SNPs to see if I carried them.
Sure enough there they were and directly related to issues I am facing.
Then I uploaded my data to StrateGene and that was an absolutely amazing report and gave me a huge amount of insight to my health.
For the first time in two years I finally feel like I'm making headway in with my health and understanding why my body is/is not responding in certain ways others do to various Peat concepts.
Anyhow, I think in general it allows us to make health decisions in a deeper more meaningful way.
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@MostlyCurious interesting. thanks for sharing. I may go down that rabbit trail
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@MostlyCurious The firm is owned by blackstone and their medical stuff is quackery at best. Completely unscientific.
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@CO3 You think genetics are fake and genetically might be a type of insect so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree here. Take care.
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That's awesome you're feeling better now. I'm glad you didn't get sucked into the toxin A cult. I don't know anything about your particular genetic condition, but having a predisposition to a vitamin A deficiency would make something like a retinal detox all the more dangerous.
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@Ruben Maybe if you have a deficiency. Copper is very important for normal metabolic function. It's needed for thyroid hormones and the electron transport chain. Copper can also keep histamine from getting too high. There is however some things that aren't so good about it. It synergizes with estrogen, and is estrogenic itself. It's also an adrenaline agonist. Probably not something you'd want to supplement with unless you can confirm a deficiency with blood work. Otherwise just get it through good diet.
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@MostlyCurious You can block users for sanity purposes
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@Mulloch94 thx, didn't know it is estrogenic
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@Mulloch94 Yeah it was a huge piece of my health puzzle, I definitely still have a ways to go but I'm seeing real change early on.
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@MostlyCurious said in Genetically Vit A Deficient.:
I have a genetic mutation that means I'm chronically low in vitamin A.
I actually discovered this about a week before the RPF went into the deep end of vit A toxicity and to be honest it left me feeling adrift.
Anyhow, this is what I'm dealing with:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9096837/
"Casey reported that the G304K mutant STRA6 protein is mislocalized and has severely reduced vitamin A uptake activity (75). Besides rs151341424, four common missense variants, rs736118, rs351236, rs971756, and rs76336272, have been identified. Of those, rs971756 and rs736118 are reported to be linked to human diseases (77-84)"
I have all of the SNPs discussed from the information above (traveller DNA).
Anyhow, my vitamin A is low and I don't feel like a radiant healthy being.
But at least your sense of humor is shining through.
I think that it is really important to do your own research about vitamin A and not necessarily swallow whole everything that's said by the geneticists/experts. It may well be that epigenetics also plays a part in this and it may also be that epigenetics can enter into the equation again.
Here is an article written by an intelligent person that you might find of interest. I admit that I got the author's name (Anthony Mawson) of the first article from a Charlie post on RPF; but that does not mean that the author is a lunatic too.
Possible Role of Endogenous Retinoid (Vitamin A) Toxicity in the Pathophysiology of Primary Biliary Cirrhosis
additional articles:
The acute and chronic toxic effects of vitamin A
and this one:
Retinoids in the Pathogenesis and Treatment of Liver Diseases
and this one:
Hypervitaminosis AMy point here is that the topic of vitamin A is breathtakingly complicated. If you have a problem with utilizing vitamin A, it may mean that your are more likely to be storing it in unfortunate configurations that are damaging to your health instead of utilizing it properly. If you supplement it you could possibly exacerbate the problem rather than correct it.
Perhaps you can nibble around the edges of the vitamin A issue and find improvement? The Antony Mawson paper points to a connection between vitamin A problems and high estrogen, for example.
from the Mawson paper:
"Retinoic acid is the most biologically active metabolite of retinol. It has important hormonal functions and participates in the regulation of numerous genes, including those controlling morphology in embryonic development, growth hormone, numerous metabolic enzymes, and cellular differentiation. In fact, it has been shown that animals grow normally on retinoic acid alone (Ross, 1991; Hinds et al., 1997) and that all-trans-retinoic acid induces hypervitaminosis A much more effectively than retinol
(Olson, 1996)."
also:
"Hypervitaminosis A is most commonly a result of self-medication. Following excessive intake, the liver becomes saturated with vitamin A so that considerable amounts of the retinyl esters, the storage form, spill over into the circulating blood. In hypervitaminotic humans, the retinyl ester values can be as high as 67% of the total plasma vitamin A (Smith and Goodman, 1976). Retinyl esters react more randomly with the membranes of cells than retinol bound to RBP, and hence are a major form of vitamin A toxicity. Furthermore, endogenous and/or administered retinoic acid (and other acidic retinoids), although not forming similar esters, is considerably more biologically active and more toxic than retinol itself (Olson, 1996). Interestingly, serum retinol levels may be normal or low due to feedback inhibition to the liver. It is important, therefore, to demonstrate increased hepatic stores along with serum retinyl ester and/or retinoic acid concentration in determining retinoid toxicity."Can you please provide information regarding how old you are and how long you have been aware of something very wrong with your health?
Did you get your cholesterol tested? High cholesterol is a marker for problems with vitamin A conversion (I think).
https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-A
"There is evidence that some populations may be more susceptible to toxicity at lower doses, including the elderly, chronic alcohol users, and some people with a genetic predisposition to high cholesterol (90)."I think it's potentially linked to my chronically low K1/K2 levels no matter how many well cooked greens.
I raise my own 100% grass fed beef, pork, eat organs, eggs, milk, butter, tallow, lard, grow my own garden, eat all the well cooked veggies, fruits etc.
You get the picture.
It just doesn't matter.
Here's the odd thing:
I'm also somehow deficient in Vitamin C, L-Valine, & L-Isoleucine which with the vitamin C being involved in protein metabolism I'm wondering if this is how I'm someone low in these AAs even though I eat ample varied proteins.
Do you consume any gelatin? Do you make a point of consuming it as a major source of protein?
I've also read that vitamin c is needed for converting beta carotene into retinol so this feels like a double whammy with a genetic mutation that prevents it and a deficiency that increases it.
I had a high carotene problem when I found Ray Peat's website in 2014. I had been eating home grown butternut squash and was being treated inadequately for hypothyroidism at that time. I stopped eating foods high in beta carotene but I did not stop eating animal sourced vitamin A (eggs, dairy). I also found an older endocrinologist who "optimized" my desiccated thyroid medication over a period of 9 months. According to Ray Peat, hypothyroid people cannot convert beta carotene into vitamin A.
I found Ray Peat's articles about the thyroid to be extremely helpful.
(I eat a lot of vit c rich foods by the way.)
Then, I got my liver testing back. I have elevated oxidative stress (not surprising) but somehow really low inflammation?
Well, that's clear as mud.... I'll focus on the oxidative stress. Lots of things cause high oxidative stress. For me, it was mercury toxicity from mercury amalgam fillings. I found the most effective way to get the oxidative stress under control is by taking high dose thiamine and magnesium glycinate.
The impact of oxidative stress in thiamine deficiency: A multifactorial targeting issue
and
Interactions of oxidative stress with thiamine homeostasis promote neurodegenerationI guess I don't have a specific question or anything but welcome ideas, it's all just weird and I thought I'd let people know about the possibility of being genetically deficient in Vitamin A.
I've attached my labs.
Oddly enough Thyroid is fine, temps are always between 98.8 & 99.3
Were you tested for hypothyroidism? What is your temp when you wake up? A higher waking temp can be caused by high adrenaline rather than good thyroid function.
Do you know which test was used for testing B1? There are a number of B1 tests that do not show whether B1 is actually working. Info about B1 testing.
Ray Peat on carotene
One thing that stands out (to me at least) is that carotene interferes with progesterone production which would be a cause for high estrogen which messes with vitamin A conversion.Your labs also include a lot of info on the so called "essential" fatty acids; omega 3's and omega 6's. If you have not already done so, reading Ray Peat's articles on fats would be helpful.
I hope you find this helpful.
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@mostlylurking said in Genetically Vit A Deficient.:
Were you tested for hypothyroidism? What is your temp when you wake up? A higher waking temp can be caused by high adrenaline rather than good thyroid function.
Do you know which test was used for testing B1? There are a number of B1 tests that do not show whether B1 is actually working. Info about B1 testing.
Ray Peat on carotene
One thing that stands out (to me at least) is that carotene interferes with progesterone production which would be a cause for high estrogen which messes with vitamin A conversion.Your labs also include a lot of info on the so called "essential" fatty acids; omega 3's and omega 6's. If you have not already done so, reading Ray Peat's articles on fats would be helpful.
I hope you find this helpful.
Apologies for missing anything, I'm using the app and it's slightly stubborn at letting me see your reply while I'm replying kinda deal.
First let me say I'm not against the concept of Vitamin A toxicity, it's just that I don't have the typical symptoms or otherwise discussed with toxicity and I am dealing with a cultural predisposition that others likely aren't.
My only real physical issues are pure exhaustion (much of my own doing/workaholic), slight lower stomach (cortisol for sure), and recently my memory/word recall had crashed so hard that I actually decided to screen myself for Alzheimer's (high risk from being prescribed benzo long term in my 20's) and am thankfully fine there.
Since beginning to use low dose retinol/K's/C I am seeing a steady improvement in all of the above, I don't plan on taking the retinol long term however and will pause mid March.
I understand the improvements could be due to K/C.
Anyhow:
I'm F 38 and come from a pretty genetically isolated culture with many weird mutations similar to the Navajo nations some remote African tribes.
(like many of us have a type of milk protein allergy that makes us go septic and die and sadly first mothers milk is typically how we find out... Turbo lactose intolerance ha)
I went to two endocrinologist over the last few years due to developing severe reactive hypoglycemia after following Ray's principals and finally gaining a healthy amount of weight.
To be fair, I was very underweight my entire life (85-90 lbs/homeless street kid/shut down hunger single/lived off of cortisol & trauma) and my predisposition to developing type 2 was high due to that.
All of that to say, I'm fine now (I discovered a B12 deficiency) but my thyroid was fine, the main endocrinologist was actually shocked that I didn't have any thyroid issues & he dug really hard to find something.
My waking temps are always 98.4-6, HOWEVER they didn't budge past 97.9 until I corrected my B12 deficiency last year (used self injection).
I also am not estrogen dominant (had him do a full panel), and while I understand that estrogen hides in tissue I have lower level of normal and have zero estrogen dominance symptoms. (Perfect skin with literally zero effort/easy periods/dangerously fertile/sex drive, etc)
For a time working with progest E in an attempt to cope with stress crashed my T, that's not fun especially since women have so little it's easy to do.
Pine Pollen for a month brought my levels back up to normal thankfully & I didn't touch progesterone again.
Yes I'm aware of the issue with PUFAs which is likely why I'm "low". Also, even before learning about them from a Ray Peat standpoint I grew up culturally being told it was all poison.
So we mainly cooked with butter/tallow/lard and we were too poor to buy pre packed foods, while I know some scoff at any PUFA my main point is I didn't come to his work dripping in rancid canola oil
I'm not sure which B1 testing they did but I will reach out and ask.
As far as the oxidative stress I'm curious about the impacts of vitamin C deficiency on this.
My magnesium levels are at the upper level of the range, but I'm not surprised as I do supplement.
Thankfully I don't have any amalgam fillings, when you're poor they just pull the teeth out
I know there are a lot of reasons to distrust genetics expert's and such but for the first time in years I'm finally seeing a real change in my health after aligning with my genetic oddities so it's hard to ignore that.
I did find your response very helpful as I genuinely enjoy "talking out" possibilities and no doubt I'll think about all of this in the background for dots to connect.
As a side note: I don't really eat any processed foods so I'm not being exposed to the crazy amounts of Vit A being added to things as I think that's a huge factor for the folks that are suffering from toxicity.
