Calcium regulation and Thyroid inquiry
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Hi! I am curious if anyone has experience with looking at hyperthyroidism and osteoporosis? I have been looking into calcium metabolism and thyroid function to try and identify where a healing opportunity may be in an individual to get balance back to thyroid and thus calcium levels. It seems to me that supporting Ca regulation with K2 M4 would be beneficial, taking molecular hydrogen or MB to help with oxidative stress that may be occurring from TPO activation, and taking progesterone and DHEA to help with possible hormonal imbalances to counteract estrogen and cortisol which I would assume to be elevated in such a condition. This would have to come along with a diet that supports bioenergetic metabolism of course first and foremost. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is there a mechanism I should be aware of or relationship that could be involved here that would also be clear to address (I know PTH would also cause Ca levels to become high but addressing the cortisol and estrogen would likely help to support proper PTH balance?). Thanks for anyone who has thoughts on this!
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Hi,
What about your vitamin D intake, there is interaction between the liposoluble vitamins.
And PTH in influenced by ca absorption. 850 mg Ca is optimal (depending on the acido-basic balance).
Here is some info to optimize assimilation.
*) Vitamins A, D, E & K – How much lipids do we need to absorb vitamins A D E?
http://suppversity.blogspot.be/2014/05/vitamin-d-e-k-how-much-and-what-type-of.html
Vitamin A (retinol) + beta-carotene : 3 to 5 g.
Source: A Fat D-Ficiency
http://suppversity.blogspot.be/2011/12/fat-d-ficiency-do-you-really-need-more.html
Vitamin E: 3 g but a PUFA-diet exhausts toco- and trienols (latent inflammation).
Vitamin K (K1 and K2): 35 g
The quantity of phylloquinone (K1) which enters your blood circulation will be reduced by around 70% if you eat your spinach without a supply of fat (Gijsbers, 1996). The absorption of K2 is 3 times larger with 35 g of lipids in the meal than with 20 g. 6 x less with 8.8 g of FA. (Uematsu et al. 1996). However 18-20g and 12-15g of PUFA are consumed daily by the American man and woman (Kris-Eheton, 2000).
Vitamin D : It is the type of fat that will determine the degree of assimilation. Oil-rich in PUFA inhibit the absorption of 25oHD vitamin. (Niramitmahapanya et al. 2011). An oil with an AGMI ratio: AGPI > 1, like sunflower or soybeans, is deleterious.
Caution: If you have a high supply of PUFA (omega-3 supplementation or oilseed consumption, with the exception of macadamia nuts which are very rich in MUFA), the blood rate of Vit D and E will often be very low because these 2 vitamins also have an anti-inflammatory action and will therefore be hijacked / diverted from their use as hormones. Details on my forum (in French, but with links in in English):
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1357-vitamines-liposolubles-et-matiere-grasse-ratio#15157
*) Synergy effect with vitamin E
“Vitamin C regenerates vitamin E and vitamin E protects β-carotene, helped in this by polyphenols. In the event of β-carotene supplementation, vitamin C regenerates vitamin E and β-carotene, and β-carotene seems to protect vitamin E without really explaining this phenomenon "(1)
Savings effect
Vitamin E is not just a vitamin. Vitamin C makes it possible to recycle oxidized vitamin E and thus prolong its lifespan. The same goes with glutathione which is thus saved for other more useful functions (detox). Glutathion is our antioxidant master. Vitamin E protects against the deleterious effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids when the latter are in excess. And it is quickly done!- John Libbey Eurotext - Anti-oxydants d’origine alimentaire : diversité, modes d’action anti-oxydante, interactions. Auteur : Claude Louis Léger.
- Daniel Raederstorff et al. Br J Nutr. 2015. doi: 10.1017/S000711451500272X
=> 20 mg Vit E for 10 gr PUFA.
Factors that facilitate or counter the absorption of vitamin D3
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1664-absorption-de-la-vitamine-d-insuffisante#20619- A Magnesium intake neither too high nor too low (RDA Mg: 360 and 420 mg depending on the sex f / m) is favorable. An excess of Mg will thwart the absorption of vitamin D3.
- Mono-unsaturated fatty acids facilitate the absorption of vitamin D (olive, avocado, macadamia, for example). Saturated fatty acids (SFA) are probably neutral, at this level. But since these SFA’s contribute to the stability of the membranes, we should take care to have a 50/50 ratio between SFA and MUFA. And as few PUFA as what is necessary for metabolism (1 % = 22 gr. It is already calculated widely. 4 % is the level not to be over. 6 % is deleterious). (Perfect health diet. Jaminet).
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@LucH thank you for the interesting read. In my interactions with numerous cancer patients, a prevalent choice among them for oils is EVOO. It is imperative to be cautious when using EVOO for cooking due to its low smoke point. This caution emphasises the potential adverse effects of using it on its own. Despite the undisclosed specifics concerning their daily diets and environmental conditions, it remains intriguing that a significant number of these individuals opt solely for EVOO.
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L LucH referenced this topic on Dec 21, 2024, 2:39 PM
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@LucH said in Calcium regulation and Thyroid inquiry:
And PTH in influenced by ca absorption. 850 mg Ca is optimal (depending on the acido-basic balance).
I thought Peat recommended about 2000mg per day or I'm missing something?
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@GRay said in Calcium regulation and Thyroid inquiry:
I thought Peat recommended about 2000mg per day
or I'm missing something?I didn't find the source back, except he was talking about a multi-supplement for pregnant women (1200 mg) (in "Nutrition for Women").
Chris Masterjohn: 600 - 700 mg Ca could be right if other parameters are alright. not the target for most people (no safe margin).
And by the way, A hunter-gatherer tribe from Africa does well with 550 mg of Ca.
Chris Masterjohn has said in a post on “Decoding what your body needs”
"Parathyroid hormone goes up, in either of those situations, not enough D in calcium or too much phosphorus. And if you feed someone meat, which is very rich in phosphorus, it doesn’t do anything to their parathyroid hormone. If you feed someone cheese, which is high in both phosphorus and calcium, it decreases their parathyroid hormone, which is a good thing.And if you feed someone packaged foods that have phosphorus additives, it increases their parathyroid hormone, which is a bad thing. So, you have processed foods = bad, meat = neutral, dairy products = good, in terms of affecting the balance of vitamin D, calcium, and phosphorus. So, the reasons for that, probably has something to do with the forms of phosphorus that are added to the food. They might be much more absorbable than the phosphorus from natural food. But it’s also because meat, for example, has amino acids that help you absorb calcium better from your diet. And so, meat isn’t just providing phosphorus, it’s also facilitating better calcium status when it’s consumed in the context of a mixed diet. And then, dairy products are actually providing that calcium. So, even though the phosphorus can antagonize the calcium, they’re providing enough calcium to not only make up for the phosphorus, but to put you in an even better situation than you would be without those dairy products. So, when we look at the calcium requirements, there’s a gray area because we don’t have a lot of data taking people who eat plenty of animal protein, plenty of dairy products, get really good vitamin D status, and don’t have any packaged foods in the diet, we don’t have a lot of data in those people. And it’s probably the case that calcium needs are lower in those people. It’s just, I don’t know how much lower they are. So my opinion is, you know, shoot for the 1,000-milligram mark, you can probably get away with consuming maybe 600 or 700 milligrams of calcium if you optimize everything else."
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@LucH thanks.
I heard also Danny Roddy before mentioning 1500mg Of Ca where required to lower PTH. however, I never thought about the context of the diet can make the difference in the Ca requirement, just like you mentioned.
I think I'm going to set my Cronometer to 1000mg max again.
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@GRay said in Calcium regulation and Thyroid inquiry:
I think I'm going to set my Cronometer to 1000mg max again.
my down/up limits are set at 650 - 1200 in Cronometer. I target 850 mg Ca. But it doesn't matter much when I reached 80 % of my goals (general), if Mg and K are good.
For instance, last evening I corrected the balance with a dose bicarbonate calcium (1.2 g) and 2/3 dose of Mg bisglycinate (2.5 g x 2/3).
I mind more when the balance between Phophorus to Calcium is to high. The main criterium. P / Ca should be 1/1.2 for RP when targeting the optimal ratio. Never more than twice phosphorus.
Never take a supplement (i don't drink milk) higher than 200-250 mg Ca. Except when I eat spinach (1000 mg Ca citrate) to catch phytate (600 mg per 100 gr spinach).
The ratio Ca / phytate shouldn't be higher than 1/4 (250 mg Ca for 1000 mg phytate) if you don't want to get problems (lithiasis and lack of methylation). -
@LucH thanks
I looked at my cronometer, and on normal days my phosphorous is almost 1300mg and Ca with not supplementation is 1000, so this called for 1500mg tot Ca.
When I eat Liver, I realize my phosphorus shoot to 2000mg.
Do we include the Ca from plant food as well or only from dairy? there may be a good chance the Ca from plant and fruit may not be as available
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@GRay said in Calcium regulation and Thyroid inquiry:
Do we include the Ca from plant food as well or only from dairy? there may be a good chance the Ca from plant and fruit may not be as available
When calcium is bound to phytate like in nuts, it"s not really available unless you have the nuts soaked. Like in white almond.
Calcium is well available in meat, fruit and most vegetables (the highest in broccoli, 66%, twice more available).
Not very well in manufactured food (biscuit, bread, pizza).
Rather take several mid-portions than high-level portion 'cause the carrier is limited (proportional assimilation). Better take 3 times 250 mg than 750 mg Ca element.
Do not take zinc or iron supplement at the same time as cheese (if more than 40 mg Ca). -
Do you have any feedback on taking desiccated thyroid in proximity to the Ca supplement? I take small amounts of NDT right before breakfast lunch and dinner.
People in the Peat community have confirmed NDT and Dairy is ok, not sure NDT and Ca supplement
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@GRay said in Calcium regulation and Thyroid inquiry:
Do you have any feedback on taking desiccated thyroid in proximity to the Ca supplement?
I don't take T3 / T4 supplement.
*) In addition, absorption of thyroid desiccated may be decreased and/or delayed by foods such as soybean flour, cotton seed meal, walnuts, dietary fiber, calcium, calcium fortified juices and grapefruit or grapefruit juice. These foods should be avoided within several hours of dosing if possible.
Source:
Thyroid Desiccated Food (search google with “Desiccated thyroid and calcium supplement and possible interaction”
*) Calcium supplements can interfere with how the body absorbs medications used to treat hypothyroidism.
Take any products containing calcium at least four hours before or after taking thyroid hormone replacement.
Other supplements — especially those containing iron — also can interfere with thyroid hormone replacement. Some foods and other medications can too.
Source:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hypothyroidism/expert-answers/hypothyroidism/faq-20058536 -
@GRay said in Calcium regulation and Thyroid inquiry:
People in the Peat community have confirmed NDT and Dairy is ok, not sure NDT and Ca supplement
Levothyroxine Interactions with Food Transport
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t119p50-the-thyroid-madness#30075
Calcium and iron supplements can interfere with how the body absorbs medications used to treat hypothyroidism. Even with milk. See figure.
One hour before and 4 hours after a Ca take or milk are often advised before taking T4. (1)
But here, on the picture beneath, we see that the uptake T4 is badly influenced until 2 hours after uptake. Leave at least 30 minutes after taking levothyroxine before you drink coffee, tea or fizzy ones.
To avoid interference with interacting agents, a 4 hour-period should be taken into account when managing the dose of a thyroid supplement.
Note: Mind Br, Cl Fl when iodine is required for deiodinase enzymes for conversion T4 into T3. (4)
Minimum delay
Source: Concurrent Milk Ingestion Decreases Absorption of Levothyroxine
450 mg of elemental calcium per 12 oz (355 mL) serving of milk 2% fat.
doi: 10.1089/thy.2017.0428 2018
Conclusions: This is the first study to demonstrate that concurrent cow's milk ingestion reduces oral levothyroxine absorption. The findings support previous literature showing the interference of elemental calcium and food with thyroid hormone absorption. Patients managed with thyroid hormone should be advised to avoid taking their levothyroxine simultaneously with cow's milk. -
thanks. it seems to be in line with another post I found on this forum. Some mention they take NDT with food and dairy to drop the ration of T4 to T3 from 4:1 to 3 to perhaps 2:1.
Danny Roddy in a video I recall was showing a study just delaying absorption, but according to the study you posted, it seems to be doing a little bit of both, delaying absorption and decreasing absorption of T4, probably not that clinically significant when t4t3 combo is used.
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@GRay said in Calcium regulation and Thyroid inquiry:
Some mention they take NDT
They should also mind iodine deficiency in tissues. Especially women (breast).
According to my reading, 150 mcg RDA is not obtained and even not sufficient to deal with the body needs.
I've just read the books of Lynne Farrow. foreword of Dr. David Brownstein
Iodine crisis.
And in French: Les pouvoirs de l’iode. (the powers of iodine). Dr. Vincent Reliquet – Prévention des Cancers, Lutte contre l’Hypothyroïdie, la dépression, l’Eczéma, la Fatigue …
Réhabilitons cet oligo-élément essentiel à la bonne santé. Préface du Dr. David Brownstein.Excerpt of one post on my forum:
"Administering thyroid hormones to iodine-deprived individuals masks the iodine deficiency and results in a population of zombies, capable of performing physical labor, but incapable of thinking and reasoning properly...”
Dr. Guy E. Abraham, The Original Internist, 2005Rephrased and decoded: Be careful when taking thyroid supplements. If you take an NDT (dried hormone) supplement, even if you have the adequate balance of T3 and T4 in this supplement - assuming of course that you observe a progressive and dosed intake - you will not be able to correct - in the long term - a "slow mood", leading to fatigue, sluggishness, apathy; nor depression and/or insomnia. Not to forget sensitivity to temperature (cold extremities of the hands and feet), muscle pain (fibro), lack of alertness or concentration, being overweight, etc.
The deficiency factor is the bioavailability of iodine and its absorption by tissues, particularly in women (breasts). The explanation will be provided later (on my forum).
Shortly said:Thyroid hormone supplementation masks iodine deficiency.
References
1a) Iodine helps maintaining optimal energy levels
doi: 10.6065/apem.2014.19.1.8
Sluggish thyroid function leads to a low metabolic rate with consequent easy weight gain and fatigue.
1b) Rôles de l’iode dans le métabolisme
https://www.regivia.com/alimentation-et-nutrition/les-micronutriments/les-mineraux-et-oligoelements/iode/
L’iode joue un rôle important sur l’ensemble des fonctions endocrines du corps comme la thermorégulation (la plus connue du grand public), le système neuromusculaire, le système cardio-circulatoire, les fonctions respiratoires, rénales et digestives et bien d’autres fonctions …
2) La toxicité de l'iode: La fin d'une erreur médicale?
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2087-toxicite-de-liode-la-fin-dune-erreur-medicale#30072 -
@Kat do you mean hypothyroid?
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I read Dr Browstean book years ago and started the Iodine. However, lately I have changed completely my mind about it.
I made a post in the forum, if you have time, watch the video attached to it and let me know what you think about, this is completely the opposite view on Iodine.