Why is raypeatforum so touchy about the topic of looks, becoming more attractive, and height?

edouard

@Sugar Our new generation is very influenced by the image we project, our appearance and our physique. I'm one myself, and that's what led me to try to optimize my nutrition/supplements and discover Ray Peat.
But for the older generation, appearance, especially in men, is seen I think as taboo-superficial-feminine (which it is a bit, let's be clear)

Peatful

For me-

Because there is much more to attractiveness than the physical.

I don’t think it’s bad to want to increase said size or height etc
But the chase may be vapid and may not satisfy ones true needs

If one seeks a more bio energetic approach
One will glean more wholeness- which will include such aesthetics

However :
No judgement on the pursuit of perceiving, thinking, acting
Those are good things
Especially if they push the person to overall true health

Context: a married mom with kids.
Happy and healthy albeit “older”.

edouard

@Peatful Well said

Peatful

@edouard thx

Crypt Keeper

As you point out I believe it's mostly down to the generational differences and how they perceive these things. Twitter of course has a younger audience than old-school forums.

I'm on the older side (pfp is my real pic) but I take such an interest in all these things so I have to be open-minded about new perspectives, and I've become fascinated with looks theory. As @edouard mentioned about older generations, when I was growing up and even through young adulthood, looks in regards to men was a very taboo discussion topic. In some ways it wasn't even in the public consciousness (though, of course, subconsciously it was always perceptible). Even as a young adult, going to the gym just to look better was only starting to be publicly recognized as an important thing to do.

yerrag

@Peatful

Agree.

But I can't in anyway avoid being judgmental. And why not? When being presentable gets to absurd heights and becomes narcissistic, what is wrong about that that doesn't need to be called out?

But this may be also be cultural, or it may be not.

Youth vs mature culture? Or is this developmental where one stage, youth, is filled with insecurities that seeks affirmation with physical characteristics, which at a later stage, learns to find fulfillment in the less physical aspects of one's being.

Instagram culture vs Bioenergetic Culture? Do we not look at Instagram models and wish more we look like them and do what it takes to be them, completely symmetrical, blemish-free, pouty lips and filled breasts and firm butts, and just wish it were all natural being blessed with superior genes rather than being sculpted by surgeons in Korea and Brazil and LA? Or would we rather entertain the fantasy of being bioenergetically complete?

I have to say I rather spend my time learning about being bionergetically whole, and not spend time pursuing pecadillos such as working to be taller or having a square jaw. But I have to admit I am interested in topics of virility, for that is inho the ultimate expression of being bioenergetically optimal.

If I have to spend time with a partner for a lifetime, I know also that looks are fleeting and as time goes, the physical feature of an unhealthy sub-energetic female with a narcissistic vibe would just make me lose interest and make me wonder what I ever did to deserve a lifelong sentence.

Sugar

I really relate this older generation claiming that looks don't matter with the just world hypothesis/just world fallacy because someone looking better than another person and having more women attracted to him or her is not fair to someone who is less attractive. We've been taught in our schools and in our society that everyone has a fair chance and anyone can do anything. We've been taught to try our hardest and take initiative, but just observing how women respond to the attractive guy versus the unattractive guy, there's a noticeable difference. The woman may see the attractive guy as charismatic and the unattractive guy as creepy, perhaps shaming him on social media, reporting him to the boss if they work together, etc. People who grew up in a different generation cannot comprehend the dating culture of today's youth and the anti male sentiment. I've had women in my family who lean liberal tell me that they are pushing the anti male sentiment way too hard today and destroying the confidence of men.

Of course it's great for anyone to move the needle with bioenergetics and become a better version of themselves, but the people on the raypeatforum who are too caught up in upholding their moral system and remnants of a fair world don't like thinking that people can have advantage over someone else with something they in someway were born into.

Sugar

I also want to state, with the thyroid experiments, Ray Peat's experience with DHEA, and anything else he did that changed his body and appearance for the better is certainly appealing to anyone who wants to become healthier for the purpose of attraction and reproduction. Health and attractiveness are certainly intertwined, it makes no sense for an unhealthy organism to be attractive, especially an older organism who lacks the protection of youthfulness. When people balloon up at a certain age from all of the PUFA consumption, they are not healthy and their appearance shows this. A man or woman who peats/cleans up their body will certainly have a better chance with the opposite sex in a healthier state. So many people hold this idea that everything is genetic and they cannot change themselves.

I think it also makes complete sense why older men or women, especially married ones, wouldn't care about their looks as much as a man or woman in the peak fertility range. Almost everyone tries to change their look it in some way. Almost every young woman wearing makeup and almost every young man getting haircuts, going to the gym, and dressing a certain way. It just makes sense for people to try the hardest and have the most drive towards the opposite sex around a certain age range.

BioEclectic

Op i think you've answered your own questions and figured it out.

Personally i would lean more towards that it's an age thing and slightly less a generational one. Those in their 20's now will likely feel differently about this topic than when they turn 50, we simply evolve.

Also, don't forget that there were quite a few folks at the RPF who weren't totally "well" so for them health will come first so they broadcast it. Their replies may be slightly OT but they do mean well.

With health and wellness comes a better look, and sometimes acquiring better looks can also bring better health.

Sugar

@BioEclectic I understand what you mean, and yes, I have a pretty good understanding of the topic. My issue is with most internet forums, especially something like reddit, instead of replying with something helpful, they have to give a mouthy response against the person asking the question. Like if someone was looking for organic coffee, the comment section will debate the idea of "organic" and not respect that person deciding to consume organic products. Or if you ask what restaurants don't cook with seed oils, people argue about how safe seed oils are. This is why I could prefer something like AI, chatGPT, instead of being able to find the information you're seeking out, you have to deal with an unhelpful and aggressive comment section.

This is how the comment sections seem to be on the topic of looks. It doesn't matter whether you think looks are unimportant, that person is just looking for what exactly is possible from people who may have knowledge he does not know about. The internet in 2024 is broken search engines and unhelpful comment sections.

BioEclectic

I hadn't considered that sort of reply, the mouthy make it personal one. My guess is the personality type you're dealing with, the mood they're in that day, and the anonymity the internet provides. The same conversation in person would flow differently, or they'd simply keep their mouths shut. Either way it's OT and or a bit rude, in some forums it may even draw a moderator response. Am not referring to those who word it constructively.

These are folks we all have to work around. Sometimes you even have to pretend that they never replied which helps diminish and obscure their comments. Or the short curt response.

NoeticJuice

@yerrag In my early teens I used to have similar opinions as you do about appearance and about people who are focused on improving their appearance however my opinions have changed over time. A person looking to become more beautiful isn't necessarily shallow and can be very interested in becoming a better person by improving mental and spiritual aspects of themselves too. Wanting to become more attractive isn't always caused by insecurities either. I know this from my own experience.

There are benefits to being attractive. Being generally attractive improves your chances of getting a job, having taller can help in some sports, and improving facial structure also improves airways and thus health. These are only few of the benefits. Some aspects of appearance such as bone structure are more difficult to improve when older so focusing on them when still young makes sense as long as you don't completely neglect other important things.

If something has happened it means it couldn't have happened any other way. This is understood when you keep in mind that every effect has a cause. So why judge anyone? By judging others you're allowing yourself to be judged by your own subconscious.

yerrag

@NoeticJuice

Please best in mind I was speaking mostly against being narcissistic. And if you feel that being narcissistic is fine, then we cannot have a meeting of the mind.

And while I cannot deny that being attractive has its advantages, you speak as if that is the only gateway to success, which it isn't. Sometimes, it may even be a hindrance. Talk about what Jesus said about the stone that the builder rejected becoming a cornerstone.

And on the subject of self-improvement as far as looks are concerned, given your highly positive endorsement of such activities as highly rewarding, what have you done about it from a personal success standpoint? Have you grown an inch taller of a foot taller? Has your jaws become much more prominent in a significant way? Has your facial structure and appearance undergone a change that made you so handsome beyond recognition to a fault by your efforts.

It is a different story when what you seek to attain is within the realm of realistic, to such extent that you are not obsessed with achieving the impossible. Keeping your hairline is possible. Improving your complexion is. Improving your posture is. Improving your teeth's appearance is, especially with the TMJ and the jaw. Improving your gait is, such as it is affected by knock knees. Improving your vision is, especially when you have very thick nerdy glasses.

But there are many fields out there that are open to people not blessed with the genes to be models. If you're not so blessed, why bother to compete with those already having an edge over you in those areas? Why insist on being a model? Do people who can't count insist on being rocket scientists? Do doors to the your place in the sun simply slam shut because you don't have the looks?

Why not be more realistic and assess where your strength, and edge, lies? Why not develop them? Spend more of your time on pursuits that will reward you because you have that gift or talent? That way, you will be more fulfilled, hsppy, and self-respecting, and you can be more secure. And be in s better position to share your hsppiness with someone you care for. It is for me, a nobler pursuit.

NoeticJuice

@yerrag said in Why is raypeatforum so touchy about the topic of looks, becoming more attractive, and height?:

Please best in mind I was speaking mostly against being narcissistic. And if you feel that being narcissistic is fine, then we cannot have a meeting of the mind.

I don't like narcissists but I don't judge them (in terms of right and wrong) for being narcissistic. There are reasons for why they are the way they are and they couldn't at that moment be any other way. If I know a person is a narcissist I would avoid them because being near them is likely to be harmful to me.

And while I cannot deny that being attractive has its advantages, you speak as if that is the only gateway to success.

Depending on what you want improving your appearance can be really beneficial or pointless. Perhaps even a hindrance as you say but I don't think this is the case for most people. You'll have to see for your self what you really want in life and then decide if it's worth improving your appearance or not.

what have you done about it from a personal success standpoint? Have you grown an inch taller of a foot taller? Has your jaws become much more prominent in a significant way? Has your facial structure and appearance undergone a change that made you so handsome beyond recognition to a fault by your efforts.

I already have good facial structure but not perfect so there's still room for improvement. I'm not currently doing anything about it. I have grown around an inch taller but I didn't put any effort into growing taller. My growth plates seem to still be open.

It is a different story when what you seek to attain is within the realm of realistic, to such extent that you are not obsessed with achieving the impossible.

If something is impossible then there's obviously no point in trying to achieve it. However what is imagined to be impossible is not necessarily impossible. Depending on how important something is to you, you might want to try to achieve it even if there's only a small chance. It would be beneficial to work towards a vision without hurry and enjoy the journey without being too attached to the outcome.

people not blessed with the genes to be models. If you're not so blessed, why bother

I find it likely that model-like appearance isn't prevented by genes in most cases. Rather it has more to do with environmental influences. In a perfect environment everyone will look great but still different from each other. I recommend watching videos on the youtube channel "Orthotropics" for more info on facial development.

Younger people are better able to change their appearance. If you're really old then attempting to greatly change your facial structure might be futile but some change can still be made. This is why it's a good idea to focus more on appearance when young if attractiveness or the things attractiveness positively affects are important you you.

Why not be more realistic and assess where your strength, and edge, lies? Why not develop them? Spend more of your time on pursuits that will reward you because you have that gift or talent? That way, you will be more fulfilled, hsppy, and self-respecting, and you can be more secure. And be in s better position to share your hsppiness with someone you care for. It is for me, a nobler pursuit.

If, let's say, painting was my passion but I'm talented in mathematics I think I would focus on improving my painting instead of mathematics. Doing what you're good at while avoiding your passion is not going to lead to the best possible life and can lead to an unhappy life. However if you're too attached to the outcome (in this case perhaps becoming a well known painter) and fail at doing so you might feel deep regret and wish you just did what you were good at. This is why holding everything with an open hand and enjoying the journey is important

yerrag

@NoeticJuice said in Why is raypeatforum so touchy about the topic of looks, becoming more attractive, and height?:

I don't like narcissists but I don't judge them (in terms of right and wrong) for being narcissistic. There are reasons for why they are the way they are and they couldn't at that moment be any other way. If I know a person is a narcissist I would avoid them because being near them is likely to be harmful to me

Judging is so taboo in western culture. Saying I don't judge is just a way of fitting in to the norms of society, but in action we can see people judging even as they deny so in words. When you say you avoid being with narcissists, were you saying there is no judgment on your part?

But the rest I won't need to rebut. We both make arguments that can stand on their own weight. It's good we made our point heard. The divide is real between us. I would even say irreconcilable. All of this is subjective, and that outcome is expected in subjective matters.

Hope to see more agreement as we share ideas on bioenergetics.

NoeticJuice

@yerrag said in Why is raypeatforum so touchy about the topic of looks, becoming more attractive, and height?:

When you say you avoid being with narcissists, were you saying there is no judgment on your part?

I don't judge them in terms of right or wrong. I just think it's harmful for me to be near them. So I do judge whether or not it's beneficial for me to be around them.

Hope to see more agreement as we share ideas on bioenergetics

I agree, that would be nice