Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure
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@DavidPS said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
@Ecstatic_Hamster - Haidut mentions the HED for selenium in this interesting post from 2022.
http://haidut.me/?p=1755thank you. Seems 200mcg per day is safe, but perhaps not long term?
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@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
Seems 200mcg per day is safe, but perhaps not long term?
Well, too much of a good thing is bad.
100 - 200 mcg seems to be safe but I don't take it every day.
I have 100 mcg supplement 2 or 3 times a week. More in case of infection (teeth).
It also depends on the other anti-oxydants, namely C and E. -
@DavidPS selenium has so many roles in the human body.
The mice were fed a high fat diet ,so lots of PUFA, so they were likely all hypothyroid.
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@DavidPS said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
@Ecstatic_Hamster - Haidut mentions the HED for selenium in this interesting post from 2022.
http://haidut.me/?p=1755Thats a completely different study though.
In the above study they used 0.0072% of the diet. I couldn't find how much food they fed. But usually high fat diets are ad libitum. And if they can choose mice usually eat around 4-5g per day.
So that is 0.000072 x 4.5g = 0.000324 g
--> So if I calculate that right that's 324mcg per day, which is a big dose for a mouse.
And a human dose would be proportionally bigger. -
@Amazoniac made some great posts on selenium in this thread . It's a lot to go through. But it's worth it.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/cautionary-tale-eat-selenium.10963/ -
@Mauritio thank you!!!!
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@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
i think it makes sense to look into the differing methionine and cysteine contens of foods.
For example milk and milk products have a lot less of those amino acids than meat. So you can eat a higher amount of cheese, yoghurt or milk, as compared to meat.
But even amongst cheeses there is a big difference in methionine content. Parmesan for example is very high.
For example : if you ate cheddar or mozzarella cheese instead of parmesan you could eat almost twice as much and still get the same amount of methionine.
If you ate feta you could eat almost 3 times the amount comapred to parmesan.
And if you eat cottage cheese you could eat almost 4 times as much.So if you eat the right type of protein like milk and find a low methionine cheese you can make your life a lot easier while still eating resting methionine.
Another good food is, Cocoa/ Chocolate. It's low in methionine, moderately high in cysteine and low in tryptophan. I think it is also a high quality protein for anabolism, haidut posted a study on that IIRC
Heres a good list:
https://fitaudit.com/categories/mlk/methionineEgg yolks seem to be a lot lower in methionine than whites, another reason to discard the whites:
https://fitaudit.com/categories/egg/methionineThis site even shows the cysteine content:
https://cystinuria.org/methionine-levels/Milk and dairy products actually have more methionine than glycine, unlike meat which has more glycine than methionine. Dairy products have the highest methionine to glycine ratio of any food.
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@VehmicJuryman said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
i think it makes sense to look into the differing methionine and cysteine contens of foods.
For example milk and milk products have a lot less of those amino acids than meat. So you can eat a higher amount of cheese, yoghurt or milk, as compared to meat.
But even amongst cheeses there is a big difference in methionine content. Parmesan for example is very high.
For example : if you ate cheddar or mozzarella cheese instead of parmesan you could eat almost twice as much and still get the same amount of methionine.
If you ate feta you could eat almost 3 times the amount comapred to parmesan.
And if you eat cottage cheese you could eat almost 4 times as much.So if you eat the right type of protein like milk and find a low methionine cheese you can make your life a lot easier while still eating resting methionine.
Another good food is, Cocoa/ Chocolate. It's low in methionine, moderately high in cysteine and low in tryptophan. I think it is also a high quality protein for anabolism, haidut posted a study on that IIRC
Heres a good list:
https://fitaudit.com/categories/mlk/methionineEgg yolks seem to be a lot lower in methionine than whites, another reason to discard the whites:
https://fitaudit.com/categories/egg/methionineThis site even shows the cysteine content:
https://cystinuria.org/methionine-levels/Milk and dairy products actually have more methionine than glycine, unlike meat which has more glycine than methionine. Dairy products have the highest methionine to glycine ratio of any food.
The ratio is less important than the absolute content. And meat has way, more methionine and Cysteine than milk.
Plus, glycine is easy to supplement, so milk + added glycine is a really good food in terms of MR.
Dare to think.
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@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
@VehmicJuryman said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
i think it makes sense to look into the differing methionine and cysteine contens of foods.
For example milk and milk products have a lot less of those amino acids than meat. So you can eat a higher amount of cheese, yoghurt or milk, as compared to meat.
But even amongst cheeses there is a big difference in methionine content. Parmesan for example is very high.
For example : if you ate cheddar or mozzarella cheese instead of parmesan you could eat almost twice as much and still get the same amount of methionine.
If you ate feta you could eat almost 3 times the amount comapred to parmesan.
And if you eat cottage cheese you could eat almost 4 times as much.So if you eat the right type of protein like milk and find a low methionine cheese you can make your life a lot easier while still eating resting methionine.
Another good food is, Cocoa/ Chocolate. It's low in methionine, moderately high in cysteine and low in tryptophan. I think it is also a high quality protein for anabolism, haidut posted a study on that IIRC
Heres a good list:
https://fitaudit.com/categories/mlk/methionineEgg yolks seem to be a lot lower in methionine than whites, another reason to discard the whites:
https://fitaudit.com/categories/egg/methionineThis site even shows the cysteine content:
https://cystinuria.org/methionine-levels/Milk and dairy products actually have more methionine than glycine, unlike meat which has more glycine than methionine. Dairy products have the highest methionine to glycine ratio of any food.
The ratio is less important than the absolute content. And meat has way, more methionine and Cysteine than milk.
Plus, glycine is easy to supplement, so milk + added glycine is a really good food in terms of MR.
agreed. Milk or cheese and plenty of collagen should be an ideal food combo. And it's low in iron.
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@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
@VehmicJuryman said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
i think it makes sense to look into the differing methionine and cysteine contens of foods.
For example milk and milk products have a lot less of those amino acids than meat. So you can eat a higher amount of cheese, yoghurt or milk, as compared to meat.
But even amongst cheeses there is a big difference in methionine content. Parmesan for example is very high.
For example : if you ate cheddar or mozzarella cheese instead of parmesan you could eat almost twice as much and still get the same amount of methionine.
If you ate feta you could eat almost 3 times the amount comapred to parmesan.
And if you eat cottage cheese you could eat almost 4 times as much.So if you eat the right type of protein like milk and find a low methionine cheese you can make your life a lot easier while still eating resting methionine.
Another good food is, Cocoa/ Chocolate. It's low in methionine, moderately high in cysteine and low in tryptophan. I think it is also a high quality protein for anabolism, haidut posted a study on that IIRC
Heres a good list:
https://fitaudit.com/categories/mlk/methionineEgg yolks seem to be a lot lower in methionine than whites, another reason to discard the whites:
https://fitaudit.com/categories/egg/methionineThis site even shows the cysteine content:
https://cystinuria.org/methionine-levels/Milk and dairy products actually have more methionine than glycine, unlike meat which has more glycine than methionine. Dairy products have the highest methionine to glycine ratio of any food.
The ratio is less important than the absolute content. And meat has way, more methionine and Cysteine than milk.
Plus, glycine is easy to supplement, so milk + added glycine is a really good food in terms of MR.
200 calories of milk has 78% of the methionine content of 200 calories of ground beef (272mg in milk / 348mg in beef). And the milk has only 22% of the glycine of the beef.
https://tools.myfooddata.com/nutrition-comparison/171265-174036/200cals-200cals/1-1/1I'm not convinced that the ratio is less important, or that the benefits of methionine restriction aren't actually benefits of having a better gly:met ratio.
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@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
The ratio is less important than the absolute content. And meat has way, more methionine and Cysteine than milk.
Plus, glycine is easy to supplement, so milk + added glycine is a really good food in terms of MR.
Glycine has its own longevity benefits. For me and my diet, the gly:meth ratio is less relevant than the absolute amount of methionine. I supplement to ensure that I have more than enough glycine in my diet than my body needs for health.
Why I MEGADOSE Glycine for Longevity - Benefits and How Much - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YcjjsP1RSc
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@DavidPS thanks not a fan of isolated aminos, but I use collagen every day for glycine content. I do very well on it and so do many others that I work with. I use about 30g or so a day.
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@Ecstatic_Hamster -I also prefer to use collagen rather than glycine.
Critics of collagen have for years argued that, if you ingest protein from an egg or piece of beef, digestive enzymes will break the protein down into single amino acids and that collagen is therefore no different than any other protein. However, recent evidence indicates that humans lack the enzymes to break down selected amino acid sequences unique to collagen. These are sequences such as Gly-Pro-Hyp (Glycine-Proline-Hydroxyproline) and related dipeptide sequences (e.g., Gly-Pro, Pro-Hyp, Gly-Hyp). These di and tripeptides then make their way intact to joint cartilage, arteries, skin and elsewhere and exert their beneficial effects, such as promoting local production of more collagen.
In other words, ingesting collagen does not cause deposition of the ingested collagen in various organs.
The best way to cure a dietary disease is to improve the diet.
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@LucH said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
Well, too much of a good thing is bad.
100 - 200 mcg seems to be safe but I don't take it every day.
I have 100 mcg supplement 2 or 3 times a week. More in case of infection (teeth).
It also depends on the other anti-oxydants, namely C and E.I agree. Selenium deficiencies are widespread, and selenium supplementation might be necessary for many people.
Interviewer - How can you tell if a underactive thyroid problem is specifically conversion from T4 to T3 within the cell versus T4 production or transportation problem? Could this be a minor iodine or selenium deficiency easily remedied by adding these in micro amounts? -
Dr. Peat - Yeah, selenium, I think 100 micrograms is a safe supplement. And selenium is essential for the local production in the tissue. . . .
https://www.bioenergetic.life/clips/38e70?t=5592&c=103The best way to cure a dietary disease is to improve the diet.
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@DavidPS said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
@Ecstatic_Hamster -I also prefer to use collagen rather than glycine.
Critics of collagen have for years argued that, if you ingest protein from an egg or piece of beef, digestive enzymes will break the protein down into single amino acids and that collagen is therefore no different than any other protein. However, recent evidence indicates that humans lack the enzymes to break down selected amino acid sequences unique to collagen. These are sequences such as Gly-Pro-Hyp (Glycine-Proline-Hydroxyproline) and related dipeptide sequences (e.g., Gly-Pro, Pro-Hyp, Gly-Hyp). These di and tripeptides then make their way intact to joint cartilage, arteries, skin and elsewhere and exert their beneficial effects, such as promoting local production of more collagen.
In other words, ingesting collagen does not cause deposition of the ingested collagen in various organs.
Thank you for your explanation. But I do not think taking an artificial isolated amino is healthy at all so I wouldn’t do it.
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@DavidPS said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
@Ecstatic_Hamster -I also prefer to use collagen rather than glycine.
Critics of collagen have for years argued that, if you ingest protein from an egg or piece of beef, digestive enzymes will break the protein down into single amino acids and that collagen is therefore no different than any other protein. However, recent evidence indicates that humans lack the enzymes to break down selected amino acid sequences unique to collagen. These are sequences such as Gly-Pro-Hyp (Glycine-Proline-Hydroxyproline) and related dipeptide sequences (e.g., Gly-Pro, Pro-Hyp, Gly-Hyp). These di and tripeptides then make their way intact to joint cartilage, arteries, skin and elsewhere and exert their beneficial effects, such as promoting local production of more collagen.
In other words, ingesting collagen does not cause deposition of the ingested collagen in various organs.
Not just that . Collagen also has its own pro-metabolic, anti-inflammatory peptides that are lost when only consuming glycine.
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Peat says in this interview a 7:1 ratio of carbs to protein can often be "very energizing" and that once people reach adulthood they likely consume too much protein.
He also says the feels like this ratio has increased his sensitivity to thyroid.https://oneradionetwork.com/dr-ray-peat-your-health-questions-answered-june-20-2022/
Dare to think.
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@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:
once people reach adulthood they likely consume too much protein.
Saying that or nothing is the same. Too much of a good thing is is always bad.
I'm not saying we could / should eat more protein.
First, RP wanted to put in excerpt that in adulthood, we need less excitative amino-acid like methionine or leucine.
By the way the link for the "interview" is poor. No explanation.
We could change / replace 50 % of catabolism proteins by collagène (glycine).
But mind this problem if you are a big fan of supplement:
Too much glycine?
What happens if you use too much glycine (supplement)?
=> You need more B9 as 5-MTHF.
First there is no danger of over-consumption except mild action on energy (GABA pathway, slow-down signal to the brain, aka depression by some users) but we burden the methyl pathway by over-using folate.So you need co-enzyme B9 as 5-MTHF (not simply folic acid).
The breakdown of glycine by the glycine cleavage system produces a molecule called a methyl group. This molecule is added to and used by a vitamin called folate. Folate is required for many functions in the cell and is important for brain development.
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@Mauritio
Sorry for the way I began the last post. I didn't want to be agressive towards you. I often appreciate much of your interventions
More seriously:
How much glycine – By Chris Masterjohn
An article from Chris Masterjohn on balancing methionine and glycine with a “Glycine-to-Methionine Ratio” searchable food database.
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/balancing-methionine-and-glycine-in-foods-the-database/
“......Methionine helps prevent fatty liver disease, which affects an estimated 70 million Americans. It makes us mentally more flexible, and can help cool our anxiety or lift us from depression when our minds are rigidly ruminating on negative thoughts. Glycine helps stabilize our blood sugar. It helps stabilize our mind, to prevent us from drifting into endless distractions. It promotes healthy sleep, and it revitalizes our skin and bones.”
How Much Glycine Do We Need?
“Estimates of how much dietary glycine we need range from 10 grams per day to 60 grams per day. Our needs are probably closer to 10 when we are in good health and closer to 60 when we are in poor health. In terms of what has been studied in humans, we can say the following:
• 3-5 grams of glycine before a meal helps stabilize blood sugar.
• 3 grams of glycine before bed helps improve sleep.
• 15 grams of gelatin before a workout helps improve collagen synthesis in our joints.
• 20 grams of glycine per day is used to treat some rare metabolic disorders.
• 60 grams of glycine per day has been used to treat schizophrenia.
If you were to add up the glycine from all of the specific uses you might use it for, it would all fall into the estimated 10-60 grams per day we need.”
How Much Glycine Do We Need to Balance Methionine?
“We do not have any rigorous human studies showing how much glycine we need to eat to make up for a given amount of methionine. We know, however, from biochemistry that methionine depletes glycine, and we know that our ancestors consumed much more glycine than we do.The biochemistry predicts that every gram of methionine would increase our needs for glycine by 0.5-1 gram.”
- this excerpt I collected from old RPF where I no longer go. Too much retinol must have reached the brain of The-Person-Whose-Name-Shouldn’t-Be-Mentioned.
Article from RP Forum – By Mito, Jun 29, 2018.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/balancing-methionine-and-glycine.24580/
Therma adds:
Keep in mind mitochondria contain a glycine cleavage enzyme that wastes excess glycine to ammonia (well, it refurbs folate in process, but you won't care). And most likely in some disease states it goes straight to that. At 60g you might as well chug some bathroom cleaner.ExCarniv says:
After searching on Chronometer different cuts of muscle meat, even Oxtail or Shank, most have a ratio of 1:2 of Methionine:Glycine
So, seems like just a bit of gelatin per day (like 5-6 grams) will gives you a total ratio of 1:3 and that should be enough right?Amazoniax cites a study, the conclusion of which is: "In conclusion, it is suggested that the hepatic Gly level is the primary factor in determining the rate of Met metabolism in rats fed a high Met diet and that the effect of Gly added to a high Met diet is elicited through the restoration of the decreased Gly level."
- this excerpt I collected from old RPF where I no longer go. Too much retinol must have reached the brain of The-Person-Whose-Name-Shouldn’t-Be-Mentioned.
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Increase Glycine, increase Taurine and you might try Tudca too. That might help.
