"Glucose Loading" protocol, a la Dr Stephens - A Critique
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I remember Ray Peat stating in an interview (I believe with Danny), that too much sugar at once without protein raises serotonin.
This is likely where the complications are coming from for some on this intervention.
Does anybody remember this, or have a source? We all know Ray was a fan of generous sugar consumption because of it's healing and pro-dopaminergic affect, but he also exercised nuance.
PS, I've got no problem with Dr Stephens, I think he discovered something Ray discovered about glucose metabolism and brain health long ago... Ray, however, had a more cohesive understanding of what's going on with the metabolism and brain, and suggested more than just sugar - nutrient cofactors, plus supplements like B3 and aspirin.
PPS Anyone remember those old posts from Georgi years ago showing case studies of reversal of mental illnesses with strait sugar consumption, or B3 supplementation? Anybody remember when Danny originally called his podcast evil sugar radio? I do. This didn't feel new the first time I saw it, and for RPF to jump on it like Dr Stephens has a unique profound discovery not already covered by Ray and the bioenergetic community, felt a bit disingenuous (like they can't admit Ray was on to more than they understood and they're just not super capable of contextualizing his broad spectrum of issues covered), or generously speaking, forgetful (probably the low vitamin A - hur dur).
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Seems reasonable and valid to me LTR. At least to loosen up the idea of a fixed 'protocol'.
If I was doing the 'glucose' 'protocol' I'd throw all other common osmolytes and substrates at myself. To stay 'thick'. Minus fructose, and slowly reintroduce that on attempts to exit the 'protocol'. Or just stay there if there was no apparent harm, until an explanation for fructose intolerance.
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I just see the way Stephen's frames the problem of the body lacking sugar as being a product of trauma to the brain in every one's lifetime as a bit disingenuous. Sure, he is a neuropsychologiat and he may be biased towards his take on it, but before he became a neuropaychologist he was a student who went through medical school and is steeped in human physiology and biochemistry, and thus, is no stranger to the role of sugar in our healthy metabolism.
But he couches the heretofore "phenomena" of high loading of dextrose as an empirical success story with little to explain short of his take on glucose limiting injuries on the brain. With no conscientious attempt to lift the curtain of mystery on it.
This makes a better understanding of what is transpiring an ongoing lab experiment on human clients as he purportedly is "building up the science" on it. And judging by the enthusiastic embrace of his protocol, speckled with praises of GOAT on him by some, as typical of a cult following a guru who leaves his disciples with more questions than answers, like the "grasshopper" disciple played by David Carradine.
That he said he's unable to get more data because none of his disciples are willing to undergo spinal taps reveals how disingenuous he could be, knowing spinal taps are very painful and that his clients are typical Americans that would just thumb their nose on mere pinpricks to get blood sugar.
Maybe if I were Stephens, I would be as practical knowing human behavior and how I could game it. It's a truism that the less you say, the less you could be criticized. Hell, the currently sitting Philippine president got elected by refusing to engage his opponents in a debate. Talk about not exposing oneself by not needing to explain oneself, and getting widespread approval- by default. Just leave your most rabid disciples to praise tou to high heavens. Bravo!
None of his followers would try to explain this phenomenon themselves. They are just waiting for the selfsame guru to find out in due time- with another book.
I am disappointed that not one of his followers would step up and try to offer an explanation for this phenomenon. As much as I expect them to have an iota of knowledge picked up from Ray Peat, together with their acumen at connecting the dots, I have yet to see anyone step up to the plate. If anything, most are just waiting agog to just let the empirical data explain things for them, in due time, with an outpouring of success stories of large dextrose intakes for 6 months- therapeutically- to get them to metabolic nirvana.
I wish them nirvana, honest. But I wish someone other than Dr. Stephens would be able to offer a Peaty, or even non-Peaty explanation for the success that comes with using Stephens' protocol. Is that too much to ask?
Note that I am not in a position to try his protocol, as I have long been able to maintain good blood sugar regulation. And I don't struggle with being overweight, even though I dont fast, eat full meals with lots of white rice. But I also practice a nutrition lifestyle that is very light on supplementing and high on foods that provide me macros, vitamins and minerals. My experience has been additively getting me more healthy. I have gone from having yearly flu to having none 20÷ and running, to having no whatsoever allergies, from being very hypoglycemic to normoglycemic to the point where I could fast for 3 days and still maintain a steady and normal blood sugar (just to stress test myself). I followed Peat's advice and stick with rhe plan for years because I don't believe in quick cures nor silver bullets, which is what many Americans are prone to believing in. I went cold turkey on PUFAs for 4 years to rid NY body stores of PUFAs , instead of falling prey to some posters suggesting some supplementing will cut short that time. I went 5 years of weekly eating beef liver before I was officially told I didn't need to wear glasses to drive in my driver's license. At my age, I don't experience arthritis nor any joint pains even though my uric acid is on the high side of normal. And while I have high blood pressure, I continue work to lowering it, and have partial success, as I believed very much high blood pressure is how my body in its wisdom adapts to let me survive, even as it would raise stress hormones that while not ideal, is what the body thinks would be a temporary condition as it leaves me to identify the pathological state I'm in and for me to follow up with a solution. By me and through me, and not some high BP medication that most everyone would submit to.
Despite my flawed state, I am metabolically healthy and count myself on the 99 percentile in terms of health, which is coming from being metabolically healthy. I can still be better. I'm still a work in progress. Which is why I'm still here learning from the community here. And giving back when I am able to.
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@LetTheRedeemed said in "Glucose Loading" protocol, a la Dr Stephens - A Critique:
I remember Ray Peat stating in an interview (I believe with Danny), that too much sugar at once without protein raises serotonin.
User: does too much sugar without protein raise serotonin
Peatbot: No, too much sugar without protein does not raise serotonin. In fact, sugar generally inhibits lipolysis, which decreases brain tryptophan and serotonin. This is contrary to the common belief that sugar raises serotonin levels. The anti-stress effect of sugar is partly due to its ability to decrease the availability of free fatty acids, which in turn reduces the brain's uptake of tryptophan and subsequent serotonin production.
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Carbohydrates alone raise serotonin through the effect that insulin has on amino acids, increasing the proportion of tryptophan in the blood in relation to other amino acids (which insulin removes from the blood). It would basically be the same if you supplemented tryptophan alone.
But although it seems that carbohydrates are a problem in this case, the real problem is the ratio of amino acids. If you consumed the same amount of sucrose but added some gelatin/collagen or even BCAAs, this effect on increasing serotonin would be abolished. This is even the basis for the “acute serotonin depletion” technique
John D. Fernstrom has several studies on amino acids ratio and serotonin
When plasma tryptophan is elevated by the injection of tryptophan or insulin, or by the consumption of carbohydrates, brain tryptophan and serotonin also rise; however, when even larger elevations of plasma tryptophan are produced by the ingestion of protein-containing diets, brain tryptophan and serotonin do not change. The main determinant of brain tryptophan and serotonin concentrations does not appear to be plasma tryptophan alone, but the ratio of this amino acid to other plasma neutral amino acids (that is, tyrosine, phenylalanine, leucine, isoleucine, and valine) that compete with it for uptake into the brain.
Fernstrom, J. D., & Wurtman, R. J. (1997). Brain Serotonin Content: Physiological Regulation by Plasma Neutral Amino Acids. Obesity Research, 5(4), 377–380. doi:10.1002/j.1550-8528.1997.tb00567.x
Choi, S., DiSilvio, B., Fernstrom, M. H., & Fernstrom, J. D. (2009). Meal ingestion, amino acids and brain neurotransmitters: Effects of dietary protein source on serotonin and catecholamine synthesis rates. Physiology & Behavior, 98(1-2), 156–162. doi:10.1016/j.physbeh.2009.05.004
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@ThinPicking agreed
@TexugoDoMel agreed, thanks for the studies.
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User: does too much sugar without protein raise serotonin
Peatbot: No, too much sugar without protein does not raise serotonin. In fact, sugar generally inhibits lipolysis, which decreases brain tryptophan and serotonin. This is contrary to the common belief that sugar raises serotonin levels. The anti-stress effect of sugar is partly due to its ability to decrease the availability of free fatty acids, which in turn reduces the brain's uptake of tryptophan and subsequent serotonin production.
thanks for the comment, @DavidPS
Unfortunately, "AI chatbots" are not true artificial intelligence; they just make outputs according to inputs. They don't have the brain to discern what's actually truly being said. They are all data no brain. Their results will always be inferior to a human doing the longform footwork thru the data themselves...
In this case, I'm positive I heard Peat say it... I could always be wrong of course, but I have zero faith in AI chatbots, because of the silly failures I've seen so many times on obvious fact problems.I did a deep dive in to why I was getting headaches from too much sugary foods away from meals (after thinking I permanently cured myself of headaches with the Ray Peat approach), and eventually found Ray Peat speaking on this very subject; unfortunately, I don't remember the location or episode. Also, as I recall, I was not the only one that experienced this incidence, and it was on the rpf forum that I found it. The logic is sound, excess blood glucose pushes tryptophan into the blood, which raises serotonin; whole food proteins, or the right proteins as emphasized by TexugoDoMel, is necessary to avoid this. And, it may not have to be a lot of protein.
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I did a deep dive in to why I was getting headaches from too much sugary foods away from meals
Would you try pure dextrose sugary foods as a crosscheck to your experiences with sugary sucrose (50% fructose) foods?
(USA Smarties, maybe marshmallows if you can find good ones not loaded with phosphates, homemade dextrose-only muffins, gummi bears, cakes etc.)
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Would you try pure dextrose sugary foods as a crosscheck to your experiences with sugary sucrose (50% fructose) foods?
Good question. It would be a moot point as the glucose itself is found to push tryptophan in the bloodstream. In fact I was reminded of my issues, as people were describing problems on the protocol of glucose, so I think I may have found the problem.
It also gave me diarrhea. I’d be interested to know if people are getting digestive problems on the protocol… of course they may call it a herx reaction or detox
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@TexugoDoMel said in "Glucose Loading" protocol, a la Dr Stephens - A Critique:
Carbohydrates alone raise serotonin through the effect that insulin has on amino acids, increasing the proportion of tryptophan in the blood in relation to other amino acids (which insulin removes from the blood). It would basically be the same if you supplemented tryptophan alone.
But although it seems that carbohydrates are a problem in this case, the real problem is the ratio of amino acids. If you consumed the same amount of sucrose but added some gelatin/collagen or even BCAAs, this effect on increasing serotonin would be abolished. This is even the basis for the “acute serotonin depletion” technique
John D. Fernstrom has several studies on amino acids ratio and serotonin
When plasma tryptophan is elevated by the injection of tryptophan or insulin, or by the consumption of carbohydrates, brain tryptophan and serotonin also rise; however, when even larger elevations of plasma tryptophan are produced by the ingestion of protein-containing diets, brain tryptophan and serotonin do not change. The main determinant of brain tryptophan and serotonin concentrations does not appear to be plasma tryptophan alone, but the ratio of this amino acid to other plasma neutral amino acids (that is, tyrosine, phenylalanine, leucine, isoleucine, and valine) that compete with it for uptake into the brain.
Fernstrom, J. D., & Wurtman, R. J. (1997). Brain Serotonin Content: Physiological Regulation by Plasma Neutral Amino Acids. Obesity Research, 5(4), 377–380. doi:10.1002/j.1550-8528.1997.tb00567.x
Choi, S., DiSilvio, B., Fernstrom, M. H., & Fernstrom, J. D. (2009). Meal ingestion, amino acids and brain neurotransmitters: Effects of dietary protein source on serotonin and catecholamine synthesis rates. Physiology & Behavior, 98(1-2), 156–162. doi:10.1016/j.physbeh.2009.05.004
That carbohydrates raise serotonin as a matter of certainty is dependent on the idea that carbohydrates always raise insulin, which I would say isn't always the case.
An insulin response isn't triggered when blood sugar doesn't stay high enough about thirty minutes (this varies and I am just throwing a number in here) after a meal. When the body can absorb and metabolize easily a huge influx of blood sugar from a high carb meal (especially of high glycemic index), blood sugar level is not raised to a high level that triggers insulin to be secreted. So insulin levels can remain low, and this won't cause serotonin levels to become high.
Friedman's test subjects may be representative of the population that is metabolically disposed to produced a large amount of insulin, but it does not represent a population of healthy people with good metabolic health, which have good control of blood sugar levels, where their blood sugar are not easily raised to where an insulin is secreted as abundantly to raise insulin levels that cause serotonin to be released.
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That carbohydrates raise serotonin as a matter of certainty is dependent on the idea that carbohydrates always raise insulin, which I would say isn't always the case.
I agree, Ray has stated on multiple occasions that to reduce the insulin spike from protein, to consume a sugar item approximately 15 minutes before the meal (meal also well balanced with carbs).
So I would agree also that certain conditions be met for sugar to raise insulin, or indeed be problematic as I’ve described. I would assume Clearly there’s more to the mechanism than is being described here. Also, I don’t know that insulin itself is the only problem. When I did some “high insulin” experiments (eating the most “insulinergic” foods recorded in databases), I felt great. Ray himself has implied insulin can be good if I remember correctly (also if I remember Georgi correctly).
I’d like to know the mechanisms of action for excess sugar raising serotonin more specifically.
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@LetTheRedeemed said
It would be a moot point as the glucose itself is found to push tryptophan in the bloodstream. In fact I was reminded of my issues, as people were describing problems on the protocol of glucose, so I think I may have found the problem.
It also gave me diarrhea. I’d be interested to know if people are getting digestive problems on the protocol… of course they may call it a herx reaction or detox
Yes. I have been getting rough digestive issues for a couple of days after every increase in dextrose and have written on this in the other thread.
I've only just read Limon9's 2022 post and the table in
Yokogoshi H, Wurtman RJ. Meal composition and plasma amino acid ratios: effect of various proteins or carbohydrates, and of various protein concentrations. Metabolism. 1986 Sep;35(9):837-42.
Dextrose really more than doubled rat plasma tryptophan. And especially Leucine really tanked to about half. When there was no dietary protein.There are two valuable approaches here I see opening up:
- Take gelatine or BCAAs together with each dextrose serving or pay heed to being "loaded-up" all day with sufficient dietary protein in digestion.
- Yerrag's mentioning of lowering the insuline-spike from carbohydrates/sucrose/dextrose by facilitating cellular uptake and metabolic usage of glucose.
This can underscore the importance of:
...2.1) Gradual increasing of dextrose servings in accordance to the increase of metabolic glucose usability.
...2.2) Cofactors for cellular glucose uptake and sparing of insuline. E.g. potassium and chloride.
I'm already doing 2.2) but haven't been able to eat my usual amounts of meat recently.
I will try a 1000mg capsule BCAAs with every serving.
Oddly, however, and despite preexisting serotonin issues of mine, when I had tried these BCAAs capsules before they had made my GI system much worse instead of better.
Are BCAAs and glucose perhaps significantly reciprocal in their requirement?
I know that gelatine/collagen/glycine and also AAs like taurine lower blood glucose and can effect stress reactions, which stands in stark contrast to what they ought to bring about.PS:
a) How much BCAA or gelatine do you reckon are necessary to compensate the AA-shift by every xx grams of dextrose (if there were no other dietary protein)?
b) Perhaps I'm being too dumb atm to see the mechanism behind these extracellular amino-acid shifts. Do they happen because the non-tryptophan amino acids are being "put to good use" by insuline and/or carbohydrates? -
PS:
a) How much BCAA or gelatine do you reckon are necessary to compensate the AA-shift by every xx grams of dextrose (if there were no other dietary protein)?
b) Perhaps I'm being too dumb atm to see the mechanism behind these extracellular amino-acid shifts. Do they happen because the non-tryptophan amino acids are being "put to good use" by insuline and/or carbohydrates?Good question. I don't really know. It sounds pretty low. Honestly, if one's liver function is so compromised they need to avoid fructose, then they should definitely be breaking up an already necessarily low protein intake, to multiple meals throughout the day... almost down to a few bites every few hours maybe.
let us know how it goes
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@LetTheRedeemed said in "Glucose Loading" protocol, a la Dr Stephens - A Critique:
That carbohydrates raise serotonin as a matter of certainty is dependent on the idea that carbohydrates always raise insulin, which I would say isn't always the case.
I agree, Ray has stated on multiple occasions that to reduce the insulin spike from protein, to consume a sugar item approximately 15 minutes before the meal (meal also well balanced with carbs).
So I would agree also that certain conditions be met for sugar to raise insulin, or indeed be problematic as I’ve described. I would assume Clearly there’s more to the mechanism than is being described here. Also, I don’t know that insulin itself is the only problem. When I did some “high insulin” experiments (eating the most “insulinergic” foods recorded in databases), I felt great. Ray himself has implied insulin can be good if I remember correctly (also if I remember Georgi correctly).
I’d like to know the mechanisms of action for excess sugar raising serotonin more specifically.
A keyword search with the DocSearch+ app in my phone shows much of what Peat has to say to say about insulin to be negative.
Perhaps you recalled Ray in his March 2021 newsletter saying this:
Many years ago Gaetan Jasmin (1956, 1968)
showed that low blood glucose intensifies abnor-
mal inflammatory reactions, and that increasing
blood glucose minimizes dangerous anaphylactoid
reactions. It’s the oxidation of glucose (producing
carbon dioxide), which is favored by warmth and
the right amount of insulin, that can prevent
inflammation (Razavi Nematollahi, et al., 2009;Also:
W. Adamkiewicz showed that reducing blood
glucose with insulin greatly intensified aller-
gic reactions, while increasing blood glucose
prevented deadly anaphylaxis, but weakened
resistance to infection. Energy metabolism
governs the effectiveness of the immune
process, including the avoidance of autoim-
munity (Gaber, et al., 2017).
Metabolic energy is involved in every
aspect of the covid infection, but that has been
denied or ignored because of a traditional,
ideological understanding of immunity.Sep. 2021 Ray Peat Newsletter
He qualified with "the right amount of insulin (first citation)" which I believe to not be the case when blood sugar is not well-regulated, with yoyos from high to low.
Although I have not heard Ray consider insulin as a stress hormone, I would consider it to be such, and the less of it the better although I would be hesitant to be deprived of it, in an emergency situation. But that is the nature of stress hormones, to be there in emergencies and only in emergencies, and not to be availed of regularly.
Re: serotonin and insulin, a search result:
At puberty, there is a sudden increase in the
incidence of depression, especially in girls.
Increased adrenaline, like increased cortisol, is a
feature of depression, stress, and inflammation;
mobilizing fats, it can become part of a vicious
circle, in which free fatty acids cause insulin resis-
tance, activating the stress reactions. Increased
serotonin is a feature of inflammation, shock,
stress, and depression, and, like histamine, is tied
very closely to estrogen's effects.Feb 2001 Ray Peat Newsletter
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@LetTheRedeemed Have you tried salt for the headaches?
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@Janelle525 yes. I’m definitely at the pinnacle of my salt intake, haha.
I lowered my sugar consumption, or at least balanced it with spreading out my protein intake, and the headaches went away. That was a while ago. And I definitely still consume quite a bit of sugar: several sodas/juice/sweat teas per day, plus spoonfuls of honey with milk, and ice cream. I’ve definitely found my max sugar capacity
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@LetTheRedeemed said in "Glucose Loading" protocol, a la Dr Stephens - A Critique:
@Janelle525 yes. I’m definitely at the pinnacle of my salt intake, haha.
I lowered my sugar consumption, or at least balanced it with spreading out my protein intake, and the headaches went away. That was a while ago. And I definitely still consume quite a bit of sugar: several sodas/juice/sweat teas per day, plus spoonfuls of honey with milk, and ice cream. I’ve definitely found my max sugar capacity
Haha okay!
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C CrumblingCookie referenced this topic on Aug 3, 2024, 11:52 AM
