Time, Progress, Despair / Recovering from Stress
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Hoping some of you who have been at this for a long time can share your internal and spiritual progress and what your timelines looked like.
In my case, while my diet and lifestyle before were Peat-adjacent--shared a lot of the same concerns about light, truth, industrial food, etc.--it's only been about a month and a half of serious commitment. By this I mean, re-introducing lots and lots of carbs (juice, fruit, ice cream, candy, honey), milk, making sure I get my protein and gelatin, and using diet and supplementation to focus on shifting away from serotonin and toward dopamine.
This was the profound realization for me right off the bat. In December, I abruptly cut out all the things I thought were helping my chronic insomnia and anxiety (melatonin, 5-HTP, prescription sleep aids and antidepressents, copious amounts of weed) and stopped compulsively restricting sugar consumption (plus progesterone and, now, a little cyproheptadine). Immediately, I was able to sleep deeply and felt a sense of profound calm and exhaustion. Based on all my reading of/listening to RP, and reflection on my history and internal state, I feel convinced that I have been hypothyroid, high serotonin, and fueled solely by stress hormones for a very long time. My energy is still low, as are my temps, and so I probably now need to figure out my thyroid.
My brain works better now too--thoughts are clearer, keener. This is great in the sense that I am more productive and creative with work and have more hope for the future. At the same time, I'm coming out of a zombie state. Years of anhedonic living driven by stress demons. My reaction to stress (perhaps a bit like IkeIkeforever noted in a recent thread--maybe why I'm thinking about all this) is to retreat, and so I've retreated for ages.
Now I have to dig myself back out. The physical, spiritual, social are all of a piece. But when you wake back up, and your brain comes back online (along with emotions), that can also make pain more acute, make the things that are missing more acute.
How do you handle the slow progress when, recognizing that everything is an interconnected whole, that means everything needs to be reevaluated? I feel like following Peat's precepts has brought parts of my being back to life, and in my best moments I'm deliriously thankful for that. But how does the reanimated creature deal with waking up in a cramped, malfunctioning, husk?
Or, like, (more prosaically) what are some good pro-metabolic substances that promote calm, confidence, and fortitude for the long journey ahead?
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@peatlegal I want people to chime in with more but the most important I can think of if you’re hitting things right dietary, is getting locked into community. Find an old church and go to potlucks and Wednesday nights or something. Get plugged in with people who will be vulnerable with you and also uplifting, in exchange for your vulnerability, too. Cross pollinate love with anyone in your sphere — go deep where it will be reciprocated.
Politely distance and limit yourself from people who don’t offer this — swiftly.
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@peatlegal said in Time, Progress, Despair / Recovering from Stress:
Years of anhedonic living driven by stress demons. My reaction to stress is to retreat, and so I've retreated for ages.
I could be wrong, but it seems most people retreat when stressed. I'm sure tolerance and source of stress vary for people, but eventually everyone reaches their "threshold" and shuts down in one way or another for some period of time.
I retreat when stressed. Your post rings true for my experience as well. "Stress demons," demons in general, have had too much power over me for a long time. I wish I had more helpful things to say, but past a certain point, medicine and substances can't really help.
I'm now mentioning Dr. Sarno, who studied the mind/body connection and back/muscle pain, and thought many pains stemmed from repressed rage. I mention this because physical pain can keep someone from overcoming stresses (true for me). His belief was that rage can't be eliminated, but its expression can be managed. In this view, rage targets certain body parts, depriving them of oxygen. Well, I wonder if rage or x factor is targeting certain brain parts and depriving them of oxygen / stressing them.
I don't really know, but I think that the body "shutting down" from stress is also the body shutting down because the mind is in turmoil. The mind directs the body, but often the body leads the mind... so I think it's always both and if we can understand the interaction better, then we're going in a better direction than the anhedonic / automatic route.I somewhat agree with Sarno, but I think he is wading completely into the dark with the unconscious causation: it could just as well be fear or some unidentified biological response causing our bodily pain, and not simply "rage" (that is non-falsifiable, too, afaik, so it's really more of a therapeutic framework anyways, but can be helpful).
I think to avoid contradictions we can not say "x y and z are good substances." If you see good results from food etc. then that is good. But considering how many things you were taking maybe try to disconnect from that habit of intake and addiction. I think antidepressants and weed both cause serotonin syndrome and that probably takes time to get back to good health.
I was reading deeply into SSRI / depression things the last few years and discovered these drugs can have lasting effects, if not long recovery times. Weed alone I think is terrible for mental clarity, memory, planning, anger, libido, emotions, etc. But at the same time, the fact is that unmanaged stress and anger drive marijuana use in the first place. It seems like the anticipation of the high is the culmination of the stress one wants to unload. So instead of someone punching a wall or a lifting a barbell, they're hitting themselves in the head and lungs with weed.
Find good outlets and things that keep you going. Don't waste energy on people who don't make time for you. I think these two things are what relieve stress but also paradoxically the two things causing so much stress.
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@LetTheRedeemed Thanks, I appreciate this and I think there is a lot of truth to what you say. The circularity of the problem means that it's obviously not solvable through diet and attempts to correct course on health alone, and actually the fixation on diet, or orthorexia, is paradoxically much easier to fall into when poor diet and lifestyle have already created the high-serotonin state. So frustrating.
That said, I'm not one for organized religion. I sometimes envy my friends who grew up in that world and can easily re-enter it, but it's just not psychically possible for me. I think a lot about Ray Peat saying in an old GE podcast that a fundamental key to living well is being surrounded by people with whom you share a sense of reality. It's absolutely right but also such a tall order in this world. I feel lucky to have a few. I'm very selective about who I spend time with and, thankfully, do not (at least in my personal life) expend energy on people who are dull, lifeless, brainwashed, predatory, etc.
So while I think this is an excellent piece of advice--what could possibly be better than being part of a small community of like-minded people who grasped, or at least desired to grasp, reality in its fullness?--it makes me extremely stressed. Being integrated into any social world has to be better, from a bio-social standpoint, than being integrated into no social world. But as you become more alive and alert to the vast propaganda apparatus, to the systems that hold people pinned like butterflies, it also becomes more difficult to sustain patience with well-intentioned but also confused people. Do I just have a very jaundiced view? I don't know--I live in the belly of the beast, the decaying US, so that probably sways my view of the possible.
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@Corngold said in Time, Progress, Despair / Recovering from Stress:
I'm now mentioning Dr. Sarno, who studied the mind/body connection and back/muscle pain, and thought many pains stemmed from repressed rage. I mention this because physical pain can keep someone from overcoming stresses (true for me). His belief was that rage can't be eliminated, but its expression can be managed. In this view, rage targets certain body parts, depriving them of oxygen. Well, I wonder if rage or x factor is targeting certain brain parts and depriving them of oxygen / stressing them.
This is interesting. I've been thinking about rage for the last day or two, actually, then read your reply in a most synchronistic fashion. I wonder if I have a tendency to direct the rage (justifiable, accumulated over a lifetime and painstakingly repressed) entirely at myself, basically committing constant ego harakiri, becoming mired in my failings. Then the whole thing manifests in psychic pain (treat with substances) or physical pain--indeed, I have chronic neck pain that has been, at times over the last few years, totally debilitating. So you're blowing my mind a little. Maybe I need to find something to wreck or punch, or simply yell at people when they deserve it rather than smiling in a stilted way.
@Corngold said in Time, Progress, Despair / Recovering from Stress:
It seems like the anticipation of the high is the culmination of the stress one wants to unload. So instead of someone punching a wall or a lifting a barbell, they're hitting themselves in the head and lungs with weed.
This too. I do have a knee jerk "find the right substance" response to stress and pain. Absolutely. I have addictive tendencies and was raised by a hardcore addict. I often feel like I am desperately waiting for that "culmination" of stress you mention--I'm treading water, treading, treading, and I get this feeling like I'm gasping for air (o.k., maybe this swimming-related metaphor has started to fall apart). I'm waiting for the moment when the constant stress will suddenly break apart and find complete release. It's possible to induce a feeling akin to this through various physical and drug-assisted methods, and so I guess I've depended on those in the hope that the experience will somehow transfer over to daily life, but maybe it just does not?
I'll note also in response to both your points on being with people, but being selective about those on whom to expend energy, what I struggle with here is judgement. I distrust myself in this regard. I become paranoiac and invent multiple explanations for interactions I have with people. Exhibit A: my very old friend whom I love has never actually cared for me enough and is abandoning our friendship. Exhibit B: my very old friend whom I love is busy taking care of a kid and misses me too. Seeking out new people and new places is one thing, but how to ferret out the places and the people where/with whom one can be entirely genuine? Again, a tall order. It seems that stress/serotonin poison the very centers that allow one to have any kind of clarity about judgements and the core substance of human interactions.
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@peatlegal said in Time, Progress, Despair / Recovering from Stress:
I have chronic neck pain that has been, at times over the last few years, totally debilitating.
Interesting. My neck and shoulder pain was causing headaches weekly and sometimes daily for the last 2 years - very bad. Went to a doctor for low level pain meds, and he helped get me to a physical therapist. Did that for a few months and have had very little pain since.
The PT was very good - suggested trying to identify when the pain starts. My mind is far more clear now than in the past, too, so I think this factor may be sort of like the pain starting in the mind and entering the body. This was also since eating Peatier and gaining a lot of energy otherwise.
If you still have physical pain I recommend this avenue enough if there's a good "progressive" PT around you and insurance covers it. I can notice triggers occasionally but interestingly, I can also remember "healing" moments in PT where I felt better/relaxed. So I think it's definitely using the body to re-wire the brain. Almost certain Dr. Sarno / German New Medicine angle explains my physical pain and mind/body connection, work and other factors aside (last few years of public/global insanity, workplace, home, etc).
On your stress / anger:
I know a guy who loves pot. He has random outbreaks punching shit sometimes. I told him he should go to a boxing club or gym. He loves ufc and all but doesn't have motivation (from pot and lots of pufa/fast food). He also seems to have this "boiling point" stress where he just wants to unleash and fight people, find easy girls, etc, but suppresses most of this with pot. Maybe boxing / fighting is a good avenue.
It seems that stress/serotonin poison the very centers that allow one to have any kind of clarity about judgements and the core substance of human interactions.
This is ingenious, peatlegal. I have nightmares and memories occasionally that seem to tap exactly this feeling. Whether it's cortisol/adrenaline or serotonin, it's like an instant flash of how your body and mind were perceiving things in a haze or exclusively subjective view.
I know pot and bad food was a factor for me but it's also unconscious biofeedback loops that reinforce things: obsessive thoughts, logorrhea, guilt/shame, worry, etc. I think Peaty ideas generally helped clear a lot of this up, though it's not everything. I also sympathize with you - I could very well be writing your original post. As lettheredeemed suggested, I can't do Church. I don't think being raised Catholic matters because I tried to consciously re-engage with it and it was absurd, messing with my scrupulosity / logical thinking, and at a very basic level preying on fear, so I don't anymore.
in the belly of the beast, the decaying US
Accurate. Older generations are unable to see it, I think. Most of them have good memories and quality of life. Anyways, whole different topic, but my main point was yes, in the belly of the beast, it's like we're having to reinvent the wheel.
On joining stuff, I'm not really into softball "drinking leagues." I can't really stand gyms either, it's a stressful / serotonergic environment. I guess I'm somewhat comfortable with the idea that I'm a difficult person, the caveat being we have to consider what modernity considers "difficult" if you catch my drift.
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@Corngold said in Time, Progress, Despair / Recovering from Stress:
On joining stuff, I'm not really into softball "drinking leagues." I can't really stand gyms either, it's a stressful / serotonergic environment. I guess I'm somewhat comfortable with the idea that I'm a difficult person, the caveat being we have to consider what modernity considers "difficult" if you catch my drift.
I like the calm clarity you seem to have about this. I don't think I'm there yet. I've thought I had that sort of clarity and acceptance of myself in the past, but honestly starting in on Peaty living threw that for a loop. I'm somehow not able to accept the coping mechanisms I've relied on in the past to avoid thinking critically about my own life, falling into comparing what I've been able to do with what others appear to have achieved, my failings, etc. This kind of rumination mode is not a healthy one at all, and I have to hope that with time, diligence, and effort it abates, but from my current vantage point at least it seems to be part of the process.
That brings me to the time and patience part of this that prompted me to post to begin with. I've had a sort of schizoid response to these dietary and lifestyle changes, because once you see how profoundly it is possible to shift your way of thinking, living, being, you also see how possible it would have been to do so in the past. If you're not that young (I'm not) that produces a great deal of frustration. If I believed in god/a higher intelligence guiding my path, this issue might be obviated, but I can't will that kind of faith into existence. I don't think.
@Corngold said in Time, Progress, Despair / Recovering from Stress:
Whether it's cortisol/adrenaline or serotonin, it's like an instant flash of how your body and mind were perceiving things in a haze or exclusively subjective view.
Yep. I think "exclusively subjective view" is a good way to put it. Or a sort of collapsed, extremely partial, impoverished view. It always looks stupid when I'm able to reflect back on it from a better position...which is usually in the summer when I'm out in the sun, swimming in the ocean, looking back on the depths of February. So there's the chemical component, the environmental/contextual component, but then my basic understanding of working toward the high metabolic state is reaching a point where the internal energy is sufficient to allow the organism to continue self regulating, and not falling into the deranged/skewed state, even when the environmental conditions are not favorable. It's sure tough though.
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@Corngold said in Time, Progress, Despair / Recovering from Stress:
He also seems to have this "boiling point" stress where he just wants to unleash and fight people, find easy girls, etc, but suppresses most of this with pot. Maybe boxing / fighting is a good avenue.
Oh and full disclosure, I'm a lady and sort of constitutionally averse to physical violence, but I could probably stand to find some old pottery to smash or, idk, ask my uncle to teach me archery or something.
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I assume everyone here or into Peat is a dude for whatever reason.
because once you see how profoundly it is possible to shift your way of thinking, living, being, you also see how possible it would have been to do so in the past.
Yes, this is hard. It is key to not let this get in the way as it creates regret and guilt. I'm over 30 now so I grasp an idea of vanished time and opportunity.
Maybe solutions appear when they need to even though it is frustrating and doesn't happen quickly. Furthermore, God believers say have faith and beg God, but this seems absurd.. the logical end of this is basically going to live in the desert or away from everything and scream at the sky, and be humbled and live as a monk.It is difficult to understand the parts and the whole; for example I think as my beliefs and ideas changed, my view of food and nutrition changed (for better and worse). I don't want to be histrionic but I think that's why Peat is like a very electric author or musician the way he engages people. The modern world is designed like a huge trap a la Kafka. Our cravings are being engineered by R&D teams; raw ingredients long have been subsidized for cheapness/profitability and extreme ideas like anti-starvation, shelf life, and cold war "fallout" shelter rhetoric. Then the FDA and "science" basically helps these big corporations move along calling their products "healthy" because they fortified it, or, because the science underlying all of the assumptions about pufa/grain, etc, is wrongfully concluding it to be healthy too.
Outside of nature, the sensations we experience are tied to the worldly materials that have been run through cost analysis resulting in mass production / low quality and engineered to maximize profits regardless of the effects (light, food, sound, etc). It's "revolutionary" pardon the term, to read Peat and others' writings and work on this world's "science," health, etc. Practically speaking, I think without a doubt I used to see "bad" food as a satisfying drug (greasy pizza, fried stuff, booze). Lots of pufa causes hangovers nearly as bad as alcohol, and it was an easy "stress relief" or stress avoidance tactic.
The cultural manufacturers prop everything up this way. It's like legal drugs, even though drugs are basically legal now
I don't claim to have anything really "worked out" very clearly except trying to understand my place within it a little better. It seems to me all of the mainstays of our "culture" are parasitic and insidious, and part of this is that people don't cook (or produce and create their own life) as much anymore. And institutions and "common sense" people deride people who 1) have energy and 2) think freely.
but I can't will that kind of faith into existence. I don't think.
It's interesting - I think to some if not many the "faith" in some ways is like asking permission to be and do. As in, I think some people are more confident but lack judgment or introspection. I might understand their faith concept if I was more confident and prideful but lacking judgment. But I spend far more timing thinking and judging things instead of "acting." So I think my faith concept would be in acting and doing. "Ask for forgiveness, not permission." Not my idea, but there's some truth to it.