@yerrag said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

organic is good, and him talking about it does less than him talking about the dangers the "organic crowd" are frequently not aware of. Such as sugar is not evil. And PUFA is not all healthful.

Only issue I have is that "organic" I think is fairly fraudulent. I think it's been shown by many people that the products are either the same, or differ only in very slight variations in production... i.e., grass being thrown to indoor dairy cows, the grass probably being tainted and sprayed anyways; things like this. It's a money-grab.

I agree with your other points. I still wonder about the difference between walnut pufa and canola oil pufa; it seems inaccurate saying walnuts are just as damaging as canola oil. That said, I usually get mouth sores and irritation eating walnuts or almonds and therefore avoid them.

@yerrag

I don't know, yerrag. He did hours of shows with Roddy & Dinkov, where they got in the weeds in terms of politics, finance, conspiracy, and other "fear-mongering" for lack of a batter term.

All I'm saying is I remember this stuff, "Forks Over Knives," Michael Pollan, and the big food/health complex existing for years before like 2020.

I believe he did mention it a few times, or commented on it or similar Chinese studies.

https://bioenergetic.life/?q=china+study

Anyways, it's just strange to me, given that I would expect him to want to defend meat and dairy, generally, and possibly find where the study went wrong in their assumptions (if it did!). I wonder if soy feed is the culprit as far as how pork and cows are being fed. The overconsumption of protein cuts and dairy could in fact be bad. But, the study was in 1983.

I wonder if the areas in question were electrified yet following Firstenberg's observations of electricity and cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc. But, once again, I sense that pufa oil and soy feed, rural diets, and electricity are all acting in concert around the time of the study.

This paper seems to have some info on rural electrification of China.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7134604/

@yerrag
Well said.
Even a certain hippie co-op used to sell raw milk, at least I think it was raw because there was like an inch of cream on the top and my goodness...best milk I've ever had. But then the rest of their wares are vegan or eastern veggies and herbs

As for your observation about visible signs of health...
that's an interesting topic.

Even the people who eat a lot of pufa, for them to be healthy, it seems like they're generally excited about life. But that's rare. I rarely see or know of anyone who has energy and enjoyment in life who also eats heavy PUFA, processed foods. And, as you said, many people who follow keto / vegetarian-ish food-ways I feel are generally unstable energetically.

Not exactly the right thread but:
Have you heard of these two things? Maybe you can help or I could start a new thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Longevity_Project

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

The latter one is interesting, in that the author, T. Colin Cambell, claims dairy and meat are driving heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc.
This would be similar to the "Pure, White, Deadly" Yudkin book/thesis that "sugar bad." In one book, he strengthened an anti-meat anti-dairy agenda. I'm sure it's connected in some way to WEF / Gates / CFR type funding to lay the psychological groundwork for de-growth and destruction of farms.

Since Peat was apparently hip to China and Communism, I wonder why he never talked about this book?

@yerrag

This one is egregious too, because fish oil is known to be harmful and a fraudulent industry now, in addition to the fisherman / omega-6 study Peat wrote about.

Like so many things in this culture, the truth is the opposite of what is said. Some pufa won't kill us, but we should avoid it. Common wisdom is we should eat pufa, and avoiding it may kill us!

@yerrag

True. You've done a good job pointing out tons of fallacies or inaccuracies I didn't quite see "grazing" the article as it were.

My thinking is it's okay for Peat to be a little gate-kept and fairly obscure. Like with so many other things, people only learn if they want to. I am not a biochemist or someone who grasps the ins and outs of nutrition very well, however, I found Peat iirc through researching aspirin, sugar, saturated fat, and other things, probably twitter-ers tipped me off too, which is good assuming anyone else can research these things.

@yerrag said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

If one is convinced of that foundational thought, one would approach bioenergetics like Ray approached it, seeking that thread of coherence to put disparate concepts in alignment and in a unity that allows us to connect dots. In so doing, we see what needs to be done in ourselves to bring our health to where we no longer are fixing endless petty small fires that look insurmountable in and of themselves, but are actually developing ourselves to a better organism and a better species.

This is a neat thread. I've been wondering about oxalates and oxalic acid for a while. It started when I was reading Peat 1-2 years ago and tried eating a salad. The salad made my stomach hurt for the night and some the following day. Romaine lettuce and/or spinach or other greens I think. I tried it again a few other times, and each time I tried a salad it was really upsetting my stomach. It's funny how salads are worshipped as a health food, but I don't remember reading anything about salad/greens in Peat's writings except for some comments about phytoestrogens and probably oxalates or sulfurs in cruciferous veggies.

If other people can eat it, great. But I'm convinced there's something going on with oxalic acid/oxalates in fresh greens like these. Of course it could be pesticides and other things given industrialized agriculture, but I'm not sure. Most fruit I eat settles well.

On the theme of "coherence" that's what I find interesting. Common wisdom in these times is leading people astray and into darkness as a feature, not a bug, of institutional authoritarianism... anyways, the idea being something like "greens are a super food and good for you." It's the same logic guiding "seed oils are good and heart-healthy." "Nuts have omega-3s and these protect your brain."

If salads are good for one person, fine, but it's a fact for me that almost every "health" food I tried eating regularly left me cold, tired, irritated, etc. I guess it's also a feature of the Peatarian opposition that most of us probably seem like culinary pariahs to those unaware of the cultural dietary inversions going on.
I see the real insanity when so-called experts criticize fruit as "sugar" or "empty carbs." Morons! Sure, don't be a fruitarian, but imagine the vitality awaiting people who started replacing pufa-slop with grapes, apples, dates, oranges, and good fruit. It's unnerving to see the simple solutions don't work I think partly because an addict doesn't simply quit heroin because sobriety is better.

I know that PUFA / SAD foods are addictive as most processed food is designed to be addictive. Is there anything published on pufa withdrawal, or pufa-deprivation causing stress?

@GRay
library genesis
look it up

@yerrag

Damn. I know plenty the screenshots jumped out at me as straw-men, or misrepresentations of Peat. It's not like Peat said "never eat nuts," or "apples are bad." I'm sure he had his preferences and thinking on many types of food.

As @Peatful said it is quite a bit of dogma/clickbait.

But it just confirms the basic assumption that there exists a Ray Peat diet, which everyone will deny. Ok, it isn't a diet, it's an approach to food. It appears to me Ray saw food as medicine. I would say he saw food as medicine because he was able to see so many health problems being caused by food. "Dose determines the poison" is the wisdom of Paracelsus but I'm sure Peat was keen on this, as he was seeing his now famous Peaty foods as offering restorative properties to a diseased / stressed / malnourished culture.

@yerrag

I don't think I was able to join Ray Peat Forum or else I would have. Did they create a new one?

I'm consulting the AIs, because it is a pretty daunting task to try and learn these in-depth biological processes. It's always fun because AIs are generally 50/50, so it makes "learning" sort of more rapid.

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/new?q=pending&newFrontendContextUUID=e28a3f7e-0346-4cd6-b9fa-f8540eb10437

Ex: "Are most people calcium deficient?"

Answwer: "Based on the available research, calcium deficiency appears to be a widespread global issue, though not necessarily affecting "most" people: ..."

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/was-ray-peat-right-about-seed-07KBpUdYSUOErBAbFrXv0Q