Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic

[Sitaruim]

@GreekDemiGod I have learned not to discard an individual based on their physiognomy. Some absolutely outstanding humans weren't favored by the gods when it comes to looks.

[LucH]

@Sitaruim said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

Chris claims that salicylates block energy production in the mitochondria and can deplete glycine

I won' formulate it so. The video is an interview. Not quite adapted.
Here is a developed position:
Why aspirin goes best with bicarbonate and glycine
Chris Masterjohn PhD – Video 9:42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGcOHmIFnGc
This episode is how to take aspirin safely if you have to take inflammatory drugs, to avoid / to dampen damages to the lining of the stomach.
Excerpt:
If we want to get rid of the salicylate part (Video time 3:20), we can use glycine. The amino acid glycine neutralizes salicylates. It means salicylate has no biological effect. The second thing you have to do is to pee, drink water to get it out, to evacuate residues. You don’t have to take glycine / to glycinate salicylates at first.
So to prevent the nasty effects, the faster you pee it out, the faster you get rid of possible side effects. If the pH of you urine goes from pH 6 to pH 7, you pee it out 17 times more efficiently (faster, we should say). The more you pee, the more you get rid of salicylates. (Video time +/ 4:10). If the pH of you urine goes from pH 6 to pH 8, you pee it out 25 times faster.
The second potential side effect of aspirin is that you do use glycine when you detoxify it.
CM advises 3 to 5 g of glycine for each dose of taken aspirin. (Video time +/ 6:00). CM repeats to modify pH pee up to 7 to make it easier to get rid / to recover.
Note’s editor (LucH): Begin with 2 g soda bicarbonate, taking apart from digestion when eating meat. I’d rather use potassium bicarbonate. I use one dose potassium bicarbonate (3.2 g) half an hour before bedtime when I need to correct my acid-base level. Do not stay too long at pH 8.5: Impact on Thymus. Th1 <> Th2.
I've made a transcription of the main passages of the video. I can open a new post if somewone wants it, with usual caution and staple (interaction).

[Mossy]

@LucH
Thank you. Very interesting about the additional benefits of white willow bark. I have both, aspirin and WWB. I will try the WWB next time.

[VehmicJuryman]

That would explain why aspirin doesn't help my insomnia

[LucH]

@VehmicJuryman said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

That would explain why aspirin doesn't help my insomnia

CM advises to take take between 1 - 3 grams glycine to help get rid excess salicylates. Begin with 1 or 2 g. (2 doses of 1 g).
I'd take L-theanine 1 hour before bedtime (150-250 mg).

Aspirin users are at risk of impaired folate status.
https://medicationsandnutrition.com/aspirin-folic-acid-interaction

• Low inhibition of folate carrier into the brain.
  Inhibition of RFC-1. The reduced folate carrier-1 (RFC-1) transports reduced folate into the brain, and its inhibition will likely result in cerebral folate deficiency. The aspirin hydrolysate salicylic acid is a likely low-affinity inhibitor of RFC-1.
• Unmetabolized folic acid.
  Dihydrofolate reductase enzyme (DHFR) is inhibited by salicylic acid. We can’t then assimilate folic acid. Need bioavailable folate to bypass this handicap. The active form 5-MTHF is required.

[Mossy]

Because I do so poorly with supplements, I'm using bone broth for glycine, instead of a glycine supplement, with a dose of white willow bark (15% salacin), equivalent to a baby aspirin.

If anyone sees this as a negative or has any thoughts, please share.

[LucH]

@Mossy said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

If anyone sees this as a negative or has any thoughts, please share.

It should be ok if you manage your acid-base balance well, particularly potassium.
I suppose you have no problem with lithiasis (excess oxalates from nuts, spinach or rhubarb). Otherwise, I'll take citrates to help get rid of. I have potassium citrate and calcium citrate. Each time I eat a compote with 50/50 rhubarb and apricot, I take one big pill of Ca citrate. Not easy to swallow, by the way.
But if you drink milk, Ca could do the job better than Mg or K, except there isn't Ca enough when you eat the 12 bastards. I can give a link if interested.
Ca takes Ox away; K or Mg make Ox softer and easier to travel through urine and feces. The CaOx stone is then very fragile ...

[Mossy]

@LucH said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

I suppose you have no problem with lithiasis (excess oxalates from nuts, spinach or rhubarb).

By this comment, can I assume that bone broth is high in oxalates?

P.S. I do think I may have trouble with Ox.

But if you drink milk, Ca could do the job better than Mg or K, except there isn't Ca enough when you eat the 12 bastards. I can give a link if interested.

Sure, I'll take a link when time allows.

Ca takes Ox away; K or Mg make Ox softer and easier to travel through urine and feces. The CaOx stone is then very fragile ...

So, ultimately, it seems the bone broth is requiring more citrate, which you feel is not possible to be gotten by drinking milk alone?

[LucH]

@Mossy said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

I assume that bone broth is high in oxalates?
So, ultimately, it seems the bone broth is requiring more citrate, which you feel is not possible to be gotten by drinking milk alone?

1. yes, but ... Explanation follows.
2. Probably not. Limit but possible, if not over 200 mg Ox. Explanation follows.

Here is the answer I wrote, not to have problems (wrong manip) and to lose the details.
Well, I won’t eat bone broth in two circumstances since bone broth is rich in glycine and particularly hydroxyproline. Not in crisis but well when under control because the advantages of bone broth are very high. Not in case of histamine and lithiasis, when in crisis.
Most urinary oxalate derives from metabolism of vitamin C, glycolate, glycine, and particularly hydroxyproline. From those who supplement with high-dose vitamin C (> 200 mg) or bone broth/gelatin/collagen we should be aware of.
Calcium oxalate is (based on molar mass):
• 1/3 calcium
• 2/3 oxalate
If a food contains 100 mg of soluble oxalate, 50 mg of calcium may be enough to absorb it and this 50 mg of Ca can be considered lost / non-bioavailable. The absorbable fraction of calcium is what remains after complexation.
Mind the twelve bastards: beet, spinach, rhubarb, broccoli, carrot, parsnip, high level of tea, almonds & cashew, miso soup, grits, baked potatoes with skin, cocoa powder.
DOI:10.5539/jfr.v7n3p76 2018
Mind these fruits: rhubarb, kiwis, dates, raspberries, oranges, tangerines. This doesn't mean you can never have these healthy treats. But you have to manage (…)
The only berry that is very high in oxalate is raspberries (see the list). Fruits with the widest observed range of oxalate included oranges (2.07-10.64 mg/100 g) and bananas (0-9.9 mg/100 g). Very variable for bananas.
You can still eat some but not in crisis, and if you manage well (frequency & capture).

Useful info: You’ll need time to read the whole stuff. Open a new file on your PC and come and read it later if not well awoken
*) Comment éliminer l’oxalate? Causes et identification (In french)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2061-comment-eliminer-loxalate#29846
*) Impact négatif de l’oxalate sur le métabolisme : Chaos biochimique !
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1959-impact-negatif-de-loxalate-sur-le-metabolisme-chaos-biochimique#28275
In short: we can handle a small amount of oxalates. When we overload the liver, we need more sulfur; we need sulfur to neutralize the oxalate. An overloaded liver will have greater difficulty exchanging one sulfur molecule for one oxalate molecule.
If we don't have enough sulfur or if the liver can't keep up, we'll lose our methylation capacity. Some useful nutrients, like B6, will no longer be available. Problems will increase: lack of enzymes, neurotransmitter deregulation, and reduced detoxification…
Problems related to sulfur (and by extension, histamine and salicylates) can be caused by a weakened metabolism, which can no longer process excess oxalate-rich foods. A threshold of 40-50 mg oxalate is therefore strongly recommended.
Edit; When not in crisis period, when varying well, when managing is optimal, 150 - 200 mg Ox is admitted. But not every day if you're at risk.
I'm.
Last week, I felt a very light alert at the left side of my belly. So, at the evening meal, I took 2 doses of potassium citrate (2 x 1.6 g) with 100 ml water. Rather a chervil soup than bone broth. Follow up on Cronometer to target Ca > 850 mg.
NB: As I take Mg bisglycinate, there is often potassium bicarbonate or potassium citrate to balance acid-base nutrients at the end of the day. Cramp prevention too.

[Mossy]

@LucH
This is useful. Thank you. It's extra interesting, because lots of what you list I have trouble with.

So, supplementing with glycine, versus bone broth, would still present the same oxalate challenge?

If we don't have enough sulfur or if the liver can't keep up, we'll lose our methylation capacity. Some useful nutrients, like B6, will no longer be available. Problems will increase: lack of enzymes, neurotransmitter deregulation, and reduced detoxification…

Would B1/thiamine help the liver to keep up?

Is it correct to think, in theory, aspirin + glycine + B1/sulfur would counter the negative effect of each supplement? Glycine to help with the salicylates of aspirin, and B1/sulfur to help with the oxalates of glycine? I would imagine it's not as simple as taking them all at once.

[LucH]

@Mossy said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

Is it correct to think, in theory, aspirin + glycine + B1/sulfur would counter the negative effect of each supplement?

You get the useful nutrients on this way but it won't match so.

First moderate excess to let the liver deal with usual amounts / the useful capacity.
Make staples / breaks to recover an balance on a easier way.
What I would do:
No alert but become conscious how to manage.
If you use aspirin for a medical purpose, I need to know. Otherwise, make staples. Or adapt the dose / the kind. If against arthrosis (inflammation and pain), there are alternative molecules (to avoid a low level of platelet aggregation). Not a good idea to have a low level of platelet during a pandemia ...
You get enough sulfur if you eat meat or cheese, but it's often complexed / not really free. Need 3-4 days for the liver to manage.
What brings sulfur could bring oxalate in excess. So not a good choice if in crisis. We have to anticipate. Not the priority to recover. But well to avoid a fucking state.
If you don't eat meat, you need selenium: 100 mcg a day. Not necessary every day. I take it 2x/wk.
So, yes aspirin + glycine but not in crisis.
B1 is going to help avoiding extra lactate. 100 mg B1 HCl can help. But it not the priority. When there isn't enough B1 for glucose to reach the Krebs cycle, lactate is formed.
If people eat wheat at 3 meals they lack B1. You shouldn't, unless you want an extra action on the metabolism / brain.

[DavidPS]

@VehmicJuryman said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

That would explain why aspirin doesn't help my insomnia

Sleep/insomnia is complicated. Aspirin in the evening works for me. See the thread Aspirin in the morning vs aspirin at night

Dr. Peat was interviewed about sleep.
Youtube Video

[Mossy]

@LucH said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

If you use aspirin for a medical purpose, I need to know.

I do not have an officially diagnosed deficiency, by western medicine standards. But by Peat standards, and simply with how I feel, I'd say sub par health and likely hypothyroid. Blood tests chronically show slightly high cholesterol, pre-diabetic A1C, and low vitamin D. I have poor digestion (which you've provided me information on elsewhere — thank you), spotty energy, and spotty sleep; and like many people, fairly chronic life stress: "as the sparks fly upward, so is man made for trouble".

My objective with aspirin is two-fold. To boost my current health state and well-being, and as a preventative for future issues.

I think I diverted from your original suggestion and analysis by mentioning B1. In my effort to grasp concepts, I've over simplified — so pardon my ignorance.

I'll backup and return to your suggestion of calcium citrate, to counter the oxalates of glycine, when taking asipirin/WWB: by way of milk or supplement.

In an effort to spare you the time and energy, I'll focus on the concepts you've already provided and see what I can achieve. Should your interest and time allow, I'll always welcome additional information.

Thank you!

[LucH]

@Mossy said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

Should your interest and time allow, I'll always welcome additional information.

Here is some information, collected from my PC bank or my forum.
If you want to discuss one point, open a new post, as we are here on salicylates. Sorry for the digression ...

*) Cholesterol
Cholesterol is not a problem, it’s the witness of some dysfunction (when high level of LDL and VLDL). See how why and how to manage in order to reinforce the integrity of the membranes:
And Chris Masterjohn on cholesterol, interviewed by Chris Kresser, with underlined ideas (In French, but with a link in English) (long interview, in 3 parts transcripted).
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2101-chris-masterjohn-a-propos-du-cholesterol-et-de-la-thyroide?highlight=cholesterol

If you’ve landed from Mars planet (for other readers):
How toxic are PUFA’s?
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2056-english-corner-how-toxic-are-pufas?highlight=cholesterol
See the paragraph on “Protection of membranes”
Or go directly to this link for more details:
Vitamine E et peroxydation des membranes (see the graph)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t642-vitamine-e-et-peroxydation-des-membranes#5645
Excerpt (from “How toxic are PUFA’s?”)

*) Vitamin D: It is the type of fat that will determine the degree of assimilation. Oil-rich in PUFA inhibit the absorption of 25OHD vitamin. (Niramitmahapanya et al. 2011). An oil with a ratio PUFA:MUFA > 1, like soybeans, is deleterious.

Factors that facilitate or counter the absorption of vitamin D3
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1664-absorption-de-la-vitamine-d-insuffisante#20619

• A Magnesium intake neither too high nor too low (RDA Mg: 360 and 420 mg depending on the sex f / m) is favorable. An excess of Mg will thwart the absorption of vitamin D3.
• Mono-unsaturated fatty acids facilitate the absorption of vitamin D (olive, avocado, macadamia, for example). Saturated fatty acids (SFA) are probably neutral, at this level. But since these SFA’s contribute to the stability of the membranes, we should take care to have a 50/50 ratio between SFA and MUFA. And as few PUFA as what is necessary for metabolism (1 % = 22 gr. It is already calculated widely. 4 % is the level not to be over. 6 % is deleterious). (Perfect health diet. Jaminet).

Useful link
Vitamine K2 et le Paradoxe du Calcium
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1189-vitamine-k2-et-le-paradoxe-du-calcium#12589
=> VitamiK2 and healthy hart & bones (with the original text in English + translation) (comments are in French). Nee time to read

*) pre-diabetic A1C
Useful info (partial approach)

*) Akkermansia probiotics
https://endopkandco.org/akkermansia-muciniphila-une-bacterie-importante-et-deletere/

• Akkermansia muciniphila and maintaining good intestinal mucosal integrity
• Akkermansia spp and its role in metabolizing our hormones
• Loss of Akkermansia muciniphila and its link to metabolic disorders, insulin resistance, and PCOS
• How to promote a microbiota rich in Akkermansia? The benefits of probiotics.

*) Diabète et vitamine D
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1866-infos-sante-divers-sce-2#28932
Vitamin D increased the likelihood of regression to normal glucose regulation by 30%
Significantly reduced HbA1c levels were also observed in association with vitamin D supplementation
Note: To optimize vitamin D level by people low in ng/ml (< 45 ng), do not over-supplement with magnesium. Target 420 -450 mg magnesium is fine.

*) Absorption de la vitamine D insuffisante ?
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1664-absorption-de-la-vitamine-d-insuffisante#20619
Factors that facilitate or hinder the absorption of vitamin D3
If I try to find an explanation why you plateau with the level of Vit D3
Vitamin D level plateaus:
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1598-le-niveau-de-vitamine-d-plafonne#19020
Magnesium supplementation moderates the activation of vitamin it's as if our body wants to guarantee as much as possible minimum blood levels of vitamin D, around 30 ng, the limit dose at which health problems related to deficiency begin to appear (fatigue, low calcium levels, etc.).
Magnesium therefore plays a regulatory role in vitamin D levels in the blood, both to limit the effects of vitamin D deficiency when it is lacking and to limit the effects of excess.
Source: Vit D et Mg – Julien Venesson : Comment le magnésium contrôle nos niveaux de vitamine D
(How Magnesium Controls Our Vitamin D Levels)
https://www.julienvenesson.fr/comment-le-magnesium-controle-nos-niveaux-de-vitamine-d/
Short excerpt:
Magnesium status influences the assimilation of vitamin D3
Key ideas
Magnesium is an essential cofactor for the synthesis and activation of vitamin D, but taking large doses of vitamin D can induce a Mg deficiency.
Some people plateau in the assimilation of active vitamin D3. We will try to understand why.
• We already knew that there was a synergy between fat-soluble vitamins but their assimilation is interconnected, and interference from the level of low-grade inflammation impacts the level of active vitamin D3.
• We have a feedback mechanism modulating the absorption of Mg, vitamin D and calcium, in order to maintain homeostasis.
• For example, magnesium would control the possible toxicity of excess vitamin D3.
• Research establishes that the Ca/Mg ratio ≈ 2:1 is optimal. However, an increased intake of unused calcium, for example following a lack of K2, can lead to an increase in urinary excretion of magnesium.
• Poor electrolyte balance can lead to autoregulation via inactivation: conversion of the active form of vitamin D to calcitriol.
Indeed, calcitriol induces the expression of 24-hydroxylase (CYP24A1) which converts 25(OH)D3 and 1,25(OH)2D3 into inactive metabolites.

*) Prevention of HB1Ac
To reverse inner blood cells destruction (AGE, RAGE, and Tissue Damage), there are some known inhibitors: Benfotiamine, aminoguanidine, L-carnosine are very useful.
Other inhibitors of protein glycation include vitamin C and E, acetyl salicylic acid (aspirin), polyphenols and metal ion chelators (acid lipoid e.g.). These last ones are useful preventively but not very efficient when the consequences are present (nerve attack). Some inhibitor may intercept the formation of AGEs but also counteract or interfere with enzyme metabolism.
So we have to adapt and to make pauses. Prevention is best, of course.
I make / made a cure of 3-4 months, twice a year, with "Anti-Glycation Formula". Target: max 5.7 glycation level.
=> With resveratrol. Useful dose is 250 mg resvératrol a day for 3 months. Make staples (impact on detox pathway Cyp450).

*) chronic life stress
We could open a new post to deal with “Nutritherapy lo limit stress impact”, but as you’re not a great fan of supplementation, I guess we could compare with rich food containing these micronutrients.
But first we should take into account the belly respiration.
Remind too to get up every 30-45 minutes and make blood flood optimal and letting go through abdominal breathing.

Combination of magnesium with taurine and B6:
Mg will of course be glycerophosphate, preferably combined with taurine (amino acid) and vitamin B6, to facilitate its retention and reuptake.
"The addition of taurine to supplements helps reduce cellular and urinary magnesium losses and, due to the direct effects of taurine, increases the effectiveness of supplement intake.
As for vitamin B6, the B vitamin most frequently deficient in the population, it is essential to enable the production in our cells and neurons of taurine, serotonin, and GABA (the anti-anxiety neurotransmitter on the receptor on which anxiolytics act and which, along with serotonin, reduces impulse tension)." Source: JP Curtay – 6 anti-stress prescriptions. Thierry Souccar Editions.

[CrumblingCookie]

@Mossy said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

low vitamin D

Without feeling pressured into believing anything: Better forget that whole D3 supplementation maniacal cycle to ever greater heights because it's all BS and built on false premises. Check your 1,25-OH-D3. It will likely be elevated in comparison to healthy control groups (your lab reference range for this will be false and a reflection of 95% of submitted samples of sick and supplemented patients). Elevated 1,25-OH-D3 binds into thyroid receptor alpha simulating high thyroid levels when they aren't. Just my two cents. The whole D3 supplementation craze has been a wilfully set-up operation draining even well-meaning researchers who fall for it of their thoughts and resources and putting blinders on the populace.

[LucH]

@CrumblingCookie said in Chris Masterjohn: Salicylates are Toxic:

Elevated 1,25-OH-D3 binds into thyroid receptor alpha simulating high thyroid levels when they aren't.

Trying to decode. I suppose this means: that high vitamin D can influence thyroid function by reducing the number of thyroid hormone receptors (TR), which can indirectly mimic some effects of hypothyroidism by decreasing overall thyroid hormone action.

=> HD vit D3 supplement takes the place / occupies thyroid hormone receptors.

[CrumblingCookie]

@LucH
No, it's different. 1,25-OH-D3 displaces T3 as the native ligand from its binding to thyroid receptor alpha which casts both peripheral thyroid hormone action as well as the feedback mechanisms into disregulation. 1,25-OH-D3 is not meant to be a circulatory but a predominantly paracrine hormone. The serum measurings of it are for the most part essentially a gradient-dependent reflection of intracellular levels. Cranking up D3 and 25-OH-D3 forces pathologically high 1,25-OH-D3 concentrations even higher because these hormones exert opposite metabolic action. The D3 supplementation debate is a masterpiece of mind-fuckery and gatekeeping to trap and blind the populace in meaningless busy-work as to why everyone's health is going to shits.

[LucH]

@CrumblingCookie
So, if I try to make it clear (with the help of ChatGPT). Thanks by advance, if I miss sth. I know it exhausts energy ...
Question to ChatGPT:

1. Need an oversimplification, not an explanation from why and how.
2. What does it imply if corrected formulated?
   Highlight:
   “Too much vitamin D can blur the body’s thyroid ‘messages,’ even if thyroid hormone itself is normal.”

Explanation (oversimplified if I did it well)
See it as a mini cause-effect chain, stripped down to essentials:

1. High vitamin D intake → raises active vitamin D (1,25-OH-D3) in the cells if ...
2. Active vitamin D → binds to thyroid receptors (VDR) and pushes thyroid hormone (T3) aside.
3. Result: Thyroid signals don’t work as they should in the body.
4. Extra result: The brain also gets confused about thyroid levels (since the feedback loop is disrupted).
5. Outcome: You can show thyroid-like symptoms or test results without actually having a true thyroid hormone problem.

Edit: See also
Vitamin D Receptor stops mitochondria respiration [Why vit D can cause problems] [1,25 vitamin D]
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/2433/vitamin-d-receptor-stops-mitochondria-respiration-why-vit-d-can-cause-problems-1-25-vitamin-d
NB: You'll need aspirin afterwards.

[CrumblingCookie]

@LucH The LLM / "AI" is making mistakes:

"Active vitamin D → binds to thyroid receptors (VDR TRalpha and TRbeta)"

but otherwise it covered the gist of it.
Point 5. actually raises attention to the next possible fallacy from this context: Spending one's lifetime trialling and discussing thyroid hormone dosing schemes instead of D3, or even both, in a ceaseless effort to mitigate symptoms.
Good find of late Travis's lookings into this. It's hard to read and was sadly left unrefined in its many implications. I much appreciacte @cs3000's posts but, without pressuring anyone into believing anything, he was wrong about making these deductions:
@cs3000 said:

So by this, need to fix thyroid before you can tolerate vitamin D well preventing excessive conversion to 1,25 and not having so much around that inhibits an already impaired mitochondria. and also need to lower macrophages if they're elevated (chronic inflammation) as they raise this 1,25 vitamin D form and inhibit mitochondria too.

That just raises the absurdity and reciprocity of running after an ever-eluding carrot. The answer's not in such running about like a headless chicken within the transgressing deceptions to entangle scientific, public and individual discourse but in inquiring the causes of and reasons for why the ratio of 1,25-OH-D3 to 25-OH-D3/24,25-OH-D3/D3 is out of whack and why macrophages are chronically overactive in the first place. Why is iron low and sequestrated and hepcidin high. That's really all I would have to say about this. Keep up your energy.

[Korven]

@CrumblingCookie Is this true in every case though, i.e. that supplementing 25-OH-D3 leads to (pathologically) high calcitriol levels?

I know that in sarcoidosis and other similar such diseases, supplementing with D3 is bad because it will just cause macrophages to produce a bunch of calcitriol.

But in healthy people, taking 25-OH-D3 should (at least in theory) lower PTH levels which then reduces the synthesis of calcitriol in the kidneys. So in the short-term vitamin D3 increases calcitriol, but in the long-term it lowers PTH/calcitriol.

I am myself conflicted on the issue whether vitamin D is good or bad.

I avoided it strictly for many years due to the logic behind the Marshall protocol, but honestly, it hasn't been that helpful and I think I just got vitamin D and calcium deficient (translucent teeth and other calcium deficiency symptoms). So I think I was wrong and Ray peat was right. Obviously getting it from the sun is best but there is no sun where I live 9 months out of 12