I will show you why I am an anarcho capitalist libertarian
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@dan-saintdominic making walls of text debating anarcho capitalist libertarian are not higher or divine substances
thomas aquinas discovered that infinite angels can fit on the head of a pin and that a demon impregnating a witch requires a succubus to gather seminal fluid from a wizard
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@peatyourmeat Does saying that make you feel better about the life you live?
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@peatyourmeat and I was responding to your comment on philosophy not to the original poster.
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@dan-saintdominic tbh yea, (not) reading about the dumb things that other people care about makes me feel smart
its also funny i saw this video about people with clown fetish and i was like wtf. why don't you carve wood or something
whenever i meet a philosophy believer person they can never debunk me when i say "god isn't not real just because your ugly"
also if your so smart why arent you rich from buying stocks, if u know so much about reality u should be able to deduce about whats gonna go up and down in price
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@Kvirion said in I will show you why I am an anarcho capitalist libertarian:
@Creuset said in I will show you why I am an anarcho capitalist libertarian:
So you subscribe to the line of thought that every models are wrong, yet you have no problem making this kind of absolutist assertion. No coherence.
LOL! But you know, world/models have shades... i.e. usefulness of models is context-dependent. I do not subscribe to naive universalism.
It seems to be your intention to be context-dependent as you keep claiming it, and I wish for you that this was the case, the problem is that you've shown during our discussion that you are a methodological absolutist, as you want Empiricism to be used in every context and human discipline, and don't believe that Deductive methods can be used in some contexts as you want to completely disqualify them, and I've already shown why this doesn't make sense.
Please try to provide more substantive arguments and less malicious/inferior rhetoric/eristics.
I've brought evidence, sources and demonstrations for all of my arguments, while you keep making empty claims, drop names or links without any details of why this should be relevant to the discussion, drop quotes out of context, or just try to support your claims with inappropriate metaphors (as formal systems aren't closed like you were claiming). I am still waiting for evidence and demonstrations for your claims.
Our understanding of the world is about making sense of it. It's often beyond formal systems (no laws entail evolution).
I will repeat myself, law has nothing to do with "understanding the world" as this is NOT a natural science. Again, you're making a categorical and methodological mistake.
I've actually watched the entire video "No Laws Entail Evolution" as I wanted to make sure I was not missing something in your arguments, and it actually seems that you did not even watch it or understand it: Kauffman is a smart and humble man and I find his work interesting. He even starts the video by explaining that he could not graduate as a philosophy student as he was not smart enough to grasp philosophy like the one of Kant and his syllogisms. What's actually funny is that he is using Kantian concepts during his video such as the Kantian whole, and you're using this video to supposedly invalidate Deductive methods or the use of formal systems. He is also very contextual as he said that what he is talking about only applies to biology and not physics (and he is also a non-reductionist as he explains that biology cannot be reduced to physics or that consciousness is not algorithmic which I completely agree with), so it is pretty obvious that he isn't an Empiricist absolutist or a methodological absolutist, and that what he is talking about in his video is completely irrelevant to our discussion.
Deduction and formality can only describe known knowns and some known unknowns. Formality is helpless in the face of a complex world that consists mostly of known unknowns and unknown unknowns. Or in other words in the world of Computational Irreducibility.
Which is why it is useful in some contexts where we need regularity and consistency such as law or math, but not biology.
I will repeat myself again, I think Empiricism is superior in sciences overall and some other disciplines, however just like explained in the quote I posted from NNT, formal systems can be used without Empiricism (a priorism), but we are forced to use formal systems such as logic or maths even in Empiricism, because we need formal tools to interpret and make sense of data.
Again, your denial of the use of formal systems or deduction in some contexts doesn't make any sense, you just have to understand this point and you won't have this limitation anymore. By the way, if I am taking time to explain that to you, this is because I think you are smart enough to understand, I never said that you were stupid and I was positively impressed by your knowledge of empirical philosophy, I just think that you are making categorical and methodological mistakes, it doesn't even mean or imply that I think I am intellectually superior to you, and I am pretty sure you can probably teach me things or correct me in other fields, like I said ego doesn't have to do anything in this discussion but you seem to have difficulties to admit when you are wrong.
Since you like metaphors, this whole debate can be summarized as:
"Kvirion, please play the musical scale of C# Major with your piano". starts playing a wrong note. "Oh, you've actually played a wrong note, you played a normal C while it needs to be a C#". Your reply would be: "What you're saying is not valid scientifically/empirically because the world is a complex system". As you see this line of arguments is completely irrelevant to the discussion, yet you keep insisting.I used musical scales for the example, but I could have used grammar, programming languages or other formal systems such as logic, math, law, etc. As you see, wanting to use Empiricism with this type of system is irrelevant as they are not natural sciences.
A lecture about physics and biology. Very related to the topic at hand, thank you.
It would help you understand that there is a real-world beyond formal systems...Regarding Daniel Schmachtenberger
LOL! Main message of Daniel is to teach about complexity, but maybe it's beyond your perception... BTW I don't agree with many of his recipes/solutions.
Glad for you that you wouldn't agree with his recipes/solutions because it is obvious that they really suck. So in this case, what are the "recipes/solutions" in politics and law that you agree with that can be derived from using the methodologies that you're rooting for? I'm asking with genuine curiosity, as I've never seen any thinker use this line of thought in politics make any coherent proposition.
Nevertheless, you have something in common with WEF - both of you don't get the human complex system and modern phenomenology. I.e., can't get beyond the limits of naive deductive "rationalism". And both of you want to force their utopian/unrealistic agenda.
Again you're doing a strawman. I clearly stated that I am a methodological pluralist (just like Feyerabend) that use different methods in different contexts, not just Deduction, but since you're only able to think in 1 dimension, you assume I do the same even though I keep explaining that this isn't the case.
And that's really funny of you to compare me with Klaus Schwab, you clearly did not read what he is talking about, as he is PRECISELY using human complex systems to justify his political theories, and rejects the use of Deductive methods in politics just like you do (once again, it shows you're making empty, unsubstantiated and uninformed claims): https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/11016552-a-pandemic-is-a-complex-adaptive-system-comprising-many-different
“A pandemic is a complex adaptive system comprising many different components or pieces of information (as diverse as biology or psychology), whose behaviour is influenced by such variables as the role of companies, economic policies, government intervention, healthcare politics or national governance. For this reason, it can and should be viewed as a “living network” that adapts to changing conditions – not something set in stone, but a system of interactions that is both complex and adaptive. It is complex because it represents a “cat’s cradle” of interdependence and interconnections from which it stems, and adaptive in the sense that its “behaviour” is driven by interactions between nodes (the organizations, the people – us!) that can become confused and “unruly” in times of stress (Will we adjust to the norms of confinement? Will a majority of us – or not – abide by the rules? etc.). The management (the containment, in this particular case) of a complex adaptive system requires continuous real-time but ever-changing collaboration between a vast array of disciplines, and between different fields within these disciplines.”
- Klaus Schwab
For clarity: Complex human systems are far more complex beyond thermodynamics. You proved you have no idea about them.
I proved nothing, I've just showed what happens when people use these exact same concepts in the field of politics, it leads to Daniel Schmachtenberger's type of WEF/Klaus Schwab's delirium on one hand, or NRx/Nick Land's type of delirium on the other hand.
Again I proved my claims and you even had to admit that Daniel S. was wrong about his political ideas (and so you're half admitting that these ideas don't work in the field of politics/law). So if you disagree with their line of thought, then tell me what are the political ideas that you subscribe to as every person I've seen using these methods in the field of politics end up in one camp or the other.
By the way and to be clear, I am not rejecting Complexity sciences, I think that they are truly great tools and maps in other disciplines such as biology and natural sciences. I just reject their use in the field of politics and law.
BTW NNT supports Common Law, not NL https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/962374894544719872?lang=en
NNT probably did not hear about Natural Law as this is not a very well known theory. He nonetheless is very close to libertarianism/anarchism and advocates for decentralization: https://www.shortform.com/blog/decentralized-government/
And he has no problem with the use of formal systems such as a priori logic, so I am pretty sure he would be able to understand this line of thought without any problem.By the way, it's not Lakatos but Feyerabend who wrote Against Method
It seems that you have a problem with an in-depth understanding of how the world works, you simply mostly memorize facts and theories without really comprehending them. A cherry-picking pseudo-erudite (IYI)...
I've shown during all of my messages that you did not understand what I was talking about, that you were using methodological absolutism, and did not understand the contextual use of different methods. I just pointed to the fact that Feyerabend is the one behind the work you are quoting for precision sake, and because I was suspecting that at this point of the discussion you were dropping names of people you did not read, because Feyerabend is a proponent of epistemological anarchism and methodological pluralism (and I subscribe to this line of thought), very different from the positions you've defended so far.
And I've never made any claim about the fact you were an idiot like you're doing, which is very preposterous of you, I just said you were confused or wrong in the specific context of this discussion. I am not surprised though that since you're out of arguments, the only things you have left are ad hominems.
The key life-work of Bruno Latour is about ANT, not stages. BTW I don't need to agree with everything that an author claims, to appreciate some of his ideas. Again: context is king!
Fair enough regarding his work on stages (even though to remind you, your "refutation" of stages was yet another unsubstantiated claim).
I know the ANT, and so could you care to explain what does the ANT have to do in the context of our discussion?
Edgar Morin's works are good but there are more pronounced players in the field of Complexity Science (not Daniel Sch.) that you seem to be not aware of.
There's a good probability that you're right about that yes, there are so many things I don't know (especially unknown unknowns), and that's why I entered this discussion believing that you would probably have something serious to oppose to what I was saying, since you were so sure of yourself.
Good that you appreciate Deleuze, but you do not seem that you learned enough from his works...
You're making a claim without substantiating it, again.
BTW Val Dusek's article indicates the same limited mind that can't get beyond naive rationality/formality...
Strawman argument, I don't use naive Rationality or formality. Read my messages again.
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@Creuset I'm simply tired of this discussion...
I said that deduction is good for a domain with a dominance of known knowns/unknows, but bad for a world where unknown/unknows rule...
But you accused me of being only empiricist... WTF?Moreover, I said earlier, that I'm a fan of always mixing deduction with inductions and abduction (in context-dependent proportions) during any reasoning. So... who is a strawman here? And so on...
Regarding WEF: "Don't listen to what people say....watch what they do."
Klaus Sch. may use the term CAS, but his/their actions/suggestions aren't compatible with Applied Complexity or an ecosystemic understanding.The World Economic Forum (WEF) agenda, while aiming for global progress and collaboration, may not perfectly align with the principles of applied complexity, especially anthro-complexity, due to several reasons:
Reductionist Approach: The WEF often employs simplified models and linear thinking to address complex global challenges. In contrast, applied complexity emphasizes the interconnectedness of systems and the nonlinear nature of social phenomena, advocating for approaches that embrace complexity rather than trying to oversimplify it.
Top-Down Solutions: The WEF tends to promote top-down solutions driven by government policies and corporate strategies. Anthro-complexity, on the other hand, recognizes the importance of bottom-up emergent behaviors and decentralized decision-making processes, which can better adapt to local contexts and dynamics.
Technocratic Bias: The WEF's focus on technological innovation and economic growth may overlook the social and cultural dimensions of complexity. Anthro-complexity emphasizes the significance of human agency, cultural diversity, and collective sense-making in shaping emergent patterns and outcomes.
Homogenization of Diversity: The WEF's emphasis on global standardization and uniformity in policies and practices may undermine the richness of local knowledge and cultural diversity, which are essential aspects of complexity. Anthro-complexity advocates for embracing and leveraging diverse perspectives and local wisdom in problem-solving processes.
Lack of Emphasis on Resilience: While the WEF addresses risks and challenges, its approach may prioritize efficiency and optimization over resilience and adaptability. Anthro-complexity highlights the importance of building resilient systems capable of navigating uncertainty, volatility, and surprise.
BTW Even Chat-GPT gets what's wrong with the "Natural Law", see below
Cultural Relativism: Critics argue that natural law theory assumes a universal set of moral principles that apply to all societies and cultures, ignoring the diversity of moral beliefs and practices across different cultures and historical periods.
Appeal to Nature Fallacy: The natural law theory often commits the fallacy of assuming that what is "natural" is inherently good or morally right. Critics argue that just because something is natural doesn't mean it is morally justified or desirable.
Lack of Empirical Evidence: Some critics argue that natural law theory lacks empirical evidence to support its claims about inherent moral principles or laws derived from nature. They contend that moral principles are socially constructed rather than objectively existing in nature.
Conflict with Evolutionary Theory: Critics point out that natural law theory may conflict with evolutionary theory, which suggests that moral behavior evolved as a social adaptation rather than being governed by universal laws inherent in nature.
Inflexibility and Stagnation: Critics argue that natural law theory can be inflexible and resistant to change, potentially hindering moral progress and adaptation to new social, cultural, and technological developments.
Difficulty in Identifying Nature's Laws: Critics question the ability to accurately identify and interpret nature's laws, arguing that it is often subjective and open to interpretation, leading to disagreements and uncertainty about what constitutes natural law.
Problem of Moral Disagreement: Natural law theory struggles to provide a satisfactory explanation for moral disagreement among individuals and cultures. Critics argue that if there were truly objective moral principles inherent in nature, there would be less disagreement about what is morally right or wrong.
Theoretical and Metaphysical Assumptions: Some critics argue that natural law theory relies on metaphysical assumptions about the existence of inherent moral order in nature, which are not universally accepted and can be difficult to justify.
Overall, these criticisms highlight the complexities and challenges inherent in natural law theory and suggest that it may not provide a complete or satisfactory account of morality.
QED. This discussion ends for me right here. I have better things to do. Thank you for some cooperation.
Panta rhei... | Liberté 🏴 | It depends... ;-)
A little Learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring:
~Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism -
Brah. Hmm.
The same hamster from RPF? Thread opener reads like a an acute case of molyneuxitis.
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@Kvirion said in I will show you why I am an anarcho capitalist libertarian:
@Creuset I'm simply tired of this discussion...
I can understand yeah, takes a lot of energy to update your worldview and it seems you don't have any available left. I've warned you at the beginning of the discussion that I am used to upset people emotionally, so I am not surprised that you would ragequit.
I said that deduction is good for a domain with a dominance of known knowns/unknows, but bad for a world where unknown/unknows rule...
But you accused me of being only empiricist... WTF?
Moreover, I said earlier, that I'm a fan of always mixing deduction with inductions and abduction (in context-dependent proportions) during any reasoning. So... who is a strawman here? And so on...What a nice turnaround. You spend all the discussion trying to tell me that Deduction or formal systems are irrelevant because of CAS and because they would supposedly be closed systems that are not representative of how the world works, and now that you have your back against the wall, you change your stance.
So tell me, if you're not against the use of Deductive methods in some contexts, what are these contexts? And why are you against it in the domain of law?
By the way, like I've already said, formal systems are not closed systems, so they are not just known knowns or known unknowns, otherwise we would not discover new mathematical theorems every year, and we could not predict that we would discover these theorems, there are some unknown unknowns even in formal systems.
Regarding WEF: "Don't listen to what people say....watch what they do."
Klaus Sch. may use the term CAS, but his/their actions/suggestions aren't compatible with Applied Complexity or an ecosystemic understanding.So tell me, what is compatible with these in the field of politics?
The World Economic Forum (WEF) agenda, while aiming for global progress and collaboration, may not perfectly align with the principles of applied complexity, especially anthro-complexity, due to several reasons:
Reductionist Approach: The WEF often employs simplified models and linear thinking to address complex global challenges. In contrast, applied complexity emphasizes the interconnectedness of systems and the nonlinear nature of social phenomena, advocating for approaches that embrace complexity rather than trying to oversimplify it.
What is reductionist in their approach? You claim things again without showing any evidence.
Top-Down Solutions: The WEF tends to promote top-down solutions driven by government policies and corporate strategies. Anthro-complexity, on the other hand, recognizes the importance of bottom-up emergent behaviors and decentralized decision-making processes, which can better adapt to local contexts and dynamics.
Careful, you're almost about to do your coming out as a libertarian and anarchist when you talk bout decentralization lol.
And so tell me, if the bottom-up emergent decision from the population is that we should kill millions of innocent people as a scapegoat for their problems, should we do it? Because this happened several times historically already and is quite likely to happen again in the future, probably in civil wars because of forced multicultural societies for example. This is a very simple illustration, between many others, of why just relying on "bottom-up emergence" without using any overarching legal principle is problematic and potentially dangerous, but I guess I am an utopian and that you're a realist right?
Technocratic Bias: The WEF's focus on technological innovation and economic growth may overlook the social and cultural dimensions of complexity. Anthro-complexity emphasizes the significance of human agency, cultural diversity, and collective sense-making in shaping emergent patterns and outcomes.
Sounds like you're using ChatGPT as your source of knowledge. And of course you don't even show any example or evidence of what you claim, as you've never read Klaus Schwab or the WEF website, who are talking about all of these topics extensively:
Cultural diversity: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/07/cultural-diversity-drive-economies-india-asia/
Collective sense-making: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/making-sense-of-the-sense_b_2645769
Cultural complexity: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/01/yo-yo-ma-we-need-culture-to-survive-and-thrive-future/Homogenization of Diversity: The WEF's emphasis on global standardization and uniformity in policies and practices may undermine the richness of local knowledge and cultural diversity, which are essential aspects of complexity. Anthro-complexity advocates for embracing and leveraging diverse perspectives and local wisdom in problem-solving processes.
Wrong, again. Example: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2013/06/preserving-myanmars-cultural-heritage/
Lack of Emphasis on Resilience: While the WEF addresses risks and challenges, its approach may prioritize efficiency and optimization over resilience and adaptability. Anthro-complexity highlights the importance of building resilient systems capable of navigating uncertainty, volatility, and surprise.
They also keep discussing about resilience everywhere, again you claim things without any evidence: https://www.weforum.org/publications/building-a-resilient-tomorrow-concrete-actions-for-global-leaders/
BTW Even Chat-GPT gets what's wrong with the "Natural Law", see below
I was pretty sure you were using ChatGPT as your source of knowledge and to write these last messages, and you've made it official. Pretty ironic that you would send me Kauffman videos that explains that artificial intelligence isn't true consciousness. You probably don't understand how artificial intelligence works, so I will tell you very simply: it just takes in a lot of data about different topics and create an average of it. Which is why it just spouts nonsense about NL, it just regurgitates what midwits wrote about the topic. All of the "counter-arguments" you quoted against Natural Law from ChatGPT are completely irrelevant, and that's pretty telling that you would not even be able to figure it out by yourself.
But let's not stop the fun here, let's ask ChatGPT what it has to say about Ray Peat:
Here are some common mistakes with Ray Peat's approach:
Lack of Peer-Reviewed Research: One of the main criticisms is that many of Ray Peat's theories and recommendations are not widely supported by peer-reviewed scientific research. While he often cites studies to support his views, critics argue that his interpretations may be selective or not representative of the broader scientific consensus.
Contradictory to Mainstream Nutritional Advice: Peat's dietary recommendations often contradict mainstream nutritional advice. For example, he advocates for a high sugar intake and the consumption of dairy products to support metabolic health, which contrasts with the advice to limit sugar and saturated fat intake given by many health organizations.
Anecdotal Evidence: Much of the support for Ray Peat's approach comes from anecdotal evidence and personal testimonials rather than controlled, scientific studies. While personal experiences can be valuable, they do not provide the same level of evidence as well-designed research studies.
Overemphasis on Certain Foods: Peat promotes the consumption of specific foods, such as dairy, fruit, and coconut oil, while advising against others like unsaturated fats found in most vegetable oils, which he claims are harmful. This overemphasis can lead to unbalanced diets lacking in variety, which may not meet all nutritional needs.
Complexity and Accessibility: Some people find Ray Peat's dietary recommendations to be complex and difficult to follow, requiring a significant amount of time and effort to implement. Additionally, the cost and availability of recommended foods can be prohibitive for some individuals.
Potential for Nutritional Deficiencies: By restricting certain food groups, there's a risk of nutritional deficiencies. Critics argue that Peat's diet might lack sufficient amounts of certain vitamins, minerals, and dietary fiber, which are essential for overall health.
One-Size-Fits-All Approach: Critics also point out that Peat's dietary recommendations do not account for individual differences in health status, metabolic rate, and dietary needs. What works for one person may not work for another, and a more personalized approach to diet and health is often recommended.
Pretty sure that you would agree with these very good arguments, right? I would also recommend you to do the same exercise with Nassim Taleb, lol.
I will give you a friendly recommendation for your next debate: Learn how to create cogent arguments, this would probably help your interlocutor to take them a bit more seriously.
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@Creuset Dude, what's wrong with you, you're still clinging to words taken out of context - not concepts, you mostly use eristics or very rigid linear thinking/logic... And you are full of hate and contempt... or rather full of serotonin and estrogen. I feel sorry for you...
But such behavior fits perfectly with the type of empty-headed bullies of the NL and religious zealots.
I am disgusted by this...
Panta rhei... | Liberté 🏴 | It depends... ;-)
A little Learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring:
~Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism -
@Kvirion said in I will show you why I am an anarcho capitalist libertarian:
@Creuset Dude, what's wrong with you, you're still clinging to words taken out of context - not concepts, you mostly use eristics or very rigid linear thinking/logic... And you are full of hate and contempt... or rather full of serotonin and estrogen. I feel sorry for you...
But such behavior fits perfectly with the type of empty-headed bullies of the NL and religious zealots.
I am disgusted by this...
Alright ChatGPT boy.
To remind you, you're the one who entered the discussion full of contempt, claiming I did not know anything about epistemology and ontology, and that kept insulting me and using ad hominems and strawmen.
The only reason you're playing victim now is because you're out of arguments, while still insulting me and doing exactly what you accuse me of. Really pathetic.
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@ThinPicking Nah, it seems like hamster fits more of the classical rothbardian AnCap mold. At least from what he sounds like in his original post.
Stefan Molyneux is apart of that whole "dark enlightenment" nRX crowd. There's sections of the libertarian movement that got indoctrinated into the alt-right. It happened in waves too. They first got involved in the race IQ stuff, then they started prescribing to Hoppe's physical removal stuff, then they started dipping their toes in the anti-democracy works of Curtis Yarvin.
Now they're just fascists, and don't even resemble what AnCaps are suppose to promote. Yet they still fly the flag for some reason unknown to me. I guess because it only marginally seems better than flying a swastika, lol.
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In the spirit of this I'm just coming back to say that wasn't unnoticed. And I appreciate some correction or reorientation on anything. So thanks Mulloch.
@ThinPicking said in Reaction system:
@peatolish said in Reaction system:
sometimes it's too taxing to write a full blown reply to a short but helpful comment
Short form reaction needn't be taxing. This isn't.
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@ThinPicking said in I will show you why I am an anarcho capitalist libertarian:
In the spirit of this I'm just coming back to say that wasn't unnoticed. And I appreciate some correction or reorientation on anything. So thanks Mulloch.
@ThinPicking said in Reaction system:
@peatolish said in Reaction system:
sometimes it's too taxing to write a full blown reply to a short but helpful comment
Short form reaction needn't be taxing. This isn't.
It's no thing really. In the spirit of laying all the cards on the table, it's not as if Stefan Molyneux (or his followers) are some sort of rouge anomaly. They are, or were, very real libertarians at one time. It's just that "olive branch" in libertarianism that extends to the deepest parts of right-wing culture and philosophy has a strong gravitational pull to it. And it mostly exists today because some of the biggest libertarian "giants," like Rothbard and even Mises, aligned themselves with right-wing extremists at certain points in history. Rothbard with Pat Buchanan and the populist movement in the 90s. And even Mises backed the Austrian fascists before emigrating to America (although calling Mises a fascistic supporter is a loaded misrepresentation. As he was the chamber of commerce for the existing administration and they were in the middle of fighting a communist revolt. I call that stuck between a rock and a hard place, but I digress.). The Trump movement today is basically a resurgence of the Pat Buchanan "paleo era" in the 90s. Although I think Buchanan was much smarter than Trump. Certainly more polished. Trump says a lot of dumb and stupid stuff but ironically ends up making choices that aren't so bad, at least by comparison to the current incumbent.
