Dht, testosterone pre workout...
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Well the thing is there aren't any studies to read about tbol, for example. Nor are there any coming because pharma companies are no longer interested (if they ever were) in producing AAS that are ergogenic.
So, all we can do is go off the limited information we do know from studies (ex. Dbol and Anavar have shown to be minimially suppressive) and look at people's experiences.
Based on my reading of people's reports with Tbol, I would say that they generally report that its less problematic than Dbol, and the gains they make on it they report as being more "keepable" than those with Dbol.
One of the few scientific studies I was able to find on the specific effects of Dbol on skeletal muscle was that it did in fact hypertrophy it, but the muscle that was grown on Dbol was not the same as the "dry" muscle that is usually built: It had different amount of potassium and it is indeed accurate to characterize as the bodybuilders do as "water weight" or "muscle fullness" and not dry tissue.
Although there aren't studies on Tbol (or if there are I have no idea how to get them - it was developed in secrecy by the East Germans ffs), based on people's reports, it does seem that Tbol specifically avoids the issue of gaining only "water weight" in the muscle as opposed to real dry tissue.
That's why I would go with the Tbol personally but it Dbol works for you go for it.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@sushi_is_cringe ok so the test time for recovering t off halo is 7 days so they say it takes 7 days but its likely it recovers the next day apparently. a bit confusing messaging on halo in this regard but it sounds like any sort of shutdown is practically a non issue
dbol on other hand most definitely does shutdown T but recovery is quick after discontinuation with 7-10 days showinf T coming back
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Based on the studies I've read on Anavar, Dbol, and the one you just posted, they all do the same thing.
While the synthetic androgen is present in meaningful concentrations
LH, FSH do not decrease significantly,
Testosterone decreases by around half but is NOT zero
After discontinuing the synthetic androgen
Testosterone production rebounds relatively quickly (days) to baseline WHERE IT REMAINS, and there may even be supercompensation
So, what's problematic about this? While you're on it, who cares if endogenous production goes down? The net effect is a supraphysiological amount of androgens.
After you come off your own production comes back, so as far as I'm concerned, this is all we were ever hoping for.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46 Great comment.
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@jamezb46 This too.
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@jamezb46 yes no pct required
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@jamezb46 Any idea on Turinabol's safety profile? I know it is liver toxic, but how suppressive is it, is it nephrotoxic etc?
Also what mental effects do people report from it? It seems like a good steroid to run with T, from what I read, it gives a nice boost without any side effects. -
I know of females who have run it for months with only mild liver enzyme elevation, not over the reference range. I don’t think it’s seriously liver toxic at 20-30 mg/day.
I’m not aware of any kidney toxicity issues, but who really knows for sure. There aren’t studies available that investigate this. It is known to decrease aldosterone though I think by about 50%.
Because people report keeping their gains, I don’t think it’s highly suppressive.
People report getting an improvement in mood from it similar to Dbol. They also say it increases metabolic rate significantly and temperature.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46 Thank you, do you think it would be worth taken in the evening-pre workout 3 times a week, for it's mental benefits?
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Half life is 16 hours, so it might cause insomnia if taken in the evenings.
However, you could take advantage of the fact that caffeine is known to increase the peak concentration (20x with Anavar) as well as clearance time of orals that are administered with it.
https://www.adop.pt/media/4114/Oxandrolone_excretion_effect_of_caffeine_dosing_.pdf
The above study shows that 300mg caffeine taken at the same time as oxandrolone caused the oxandrolone levels in blood to skyrocket and then decrease to almost zero in 8 hours. So, the study authors note that the concentration of oxandrolone mirrored that of the caffeine.
So, let’s say your workout is at 5pm. You could take the caffeine and Tbol at 4, have your workout, then after take theanine, taurine, or glycine to help calm you down before bed.
That way you can hopefully metabolize most of the caffeine before bed (maybe at midnight?) or at least mitigate the effects of the caffeine on the CNS at that time while getting a boost from the tbol.
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46 I love that study, very unknown for some reason.
What is interesting as you mentioned was that the oxandrolone crashed at the 8-hour mark, then rose and remained elevated for the rest of the 24 or so hours.
Their explanation for this was that caffeine increased the bioavailability of oxandrolone right? I find that hard to understand, Anavar has a bioavailability of 97% already.
"We postulate that caffeine increases the bioavailability of oxandrolone, probably by
increasing gut emptying. Practically this means that similar concentrations/effects may be
achieved using lower dosages. "How can caffeine boost the bioavailability past 100%, to get 20x the concentration compared to the control group?
Haidut claimed it was due to increased cellular uptake of oxandrolone. What do you think?
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Haidut’s explanation raises some questions: for one, even if caffeine increased cellular uptake of oxandrolone, if we suppose that without caffeine the same amount of oxandrolone was absorbed form the intestines, then wouldn’t a blood test for oxandrolone show the same amount of oxandrolone in the blood in both cases? Could the blood test discriminate between extra cellular and intracellular oxandrolone?
Maybe if oxandrolone were not taken up by cells due to the same extent as they would under caffeine influence, it would be eliminated in the urine quickly, and thus would have been detectable after some time only at amounts 1/20 the amounts seen with caffeine co-administration.
But if caffeine indeed increased cellular uptake, why wouldn’t the same be true with respect to endogenous androgens? Maybe it is true, but there are simply not that many endogenously produced androgens available in a physiological stage when people normally consume caffeine thus only leading to a marginal increase in total androgens inside cells when taking coffee as one normally would.
By what mechanism could caffeine increase cellular uptake of androgens? Well, here’s one thing I know: Lipophilic caffeine derivatives like pentoxifylline and their metabolites are known to be anti-viral agents.
Some anti-viral agents like adamantane are known to work by increasing the lipophilicity of cells, prohibiting the entrance of the virus into the cells.
If caffeine has this same effect of increasing the lipophilicity of cells, then perhaps it increases their uptake on androgens
, which are lipophilic molecules.In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46 Very very interesting, amazing comment.
@jamezb46 said in Dht, testosterone pre workout...:
Haidut’s explanation raises some questions: for one, even if caffeine increased cellular uptake of oxandrolone, if we suppose that without caffeine the same amount of oxandrolone was absorbed form the intestines, then wouldn’t a blood test for oxandrolone show the same amount of oxandrolone in the blood in both cases? Could the blood test discriminate between extracellular and intracellular oxandrolone?
Exactly... that is why the hypothesis of increased bioavailability makes sense but it doesn't at the same time
@jamezb46 said in Dht, testosterone pre workout...:
But if caffeine indeed increased cellular uptake, why wouldn’t the same be true with respect to endogenous androgens? Maybe it is true, but there are simply not that many endogenously produced androgens available in a physiological stage when people normally consume caffeine thus only leading to a marginal increase in total androgens inside cells when taking coffee as one normally would.
By what mechanism could caffeine increase cellular uptake of androgens? Well, here’s one thing I know: Lipophilic caffeine derivatives like pentoxifylline and their metabolites are known to be anti-viral agents.
Some anti-viral agents like adamantane are known to work by increasing the lipophilicity of cells, prohibiting the entrance of the virus into the cells.
Okay here we are getting somewhere I think. The lipophilicity of the cell only determines free steroids affinity for the cell. Not bound steroids. Inside the cell free steroids are the only steroids that can get metabolised by enzymes
If it a cell is more lipophilic - more free steroids will enter the cell - and since more free steroids are in the cell, more will get metabolised.
Therefore; the ratio of a steroid to it's metabolites shows the metabolism of a steroid, and since metabolism of a steroid is determined by the lipophilicty of the cell, the ratio of a steroid to it's metabolite is an indicator for the lipohilicty of the cell?
In the study mentioned, at oxandrolone's maximal concentrations, caffeine decreased the ratio of oxandrolone to it's metabolite epi oxandrolone by 25% (from 10 to 7.5), therefore caffeine increased the metabolsim of oxandrolone by 25%.
So either caffeine induces the enzymes that metabolise oxandrolone, or it increases the lipophilicity of the cell, and free steroids affinity for the cell, causing more free oxandrolone to enter the cell to be metabolised into epioxandrolone decreasing the ratio of oxandrolone to epioxandrolone.
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@alfredoolivas The enzyme is 17 beta HSD. I want to see evidence for how caffeine affects this enzyme in humans, because a rat study claimed that caffeine increased the expression of the enzyme, but it also claimed that caffeine increased testosterone, which doesn't happen in humans - so I am hesistant to claim that caffeine increases 17 beta HSD activity
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guys apparently 2.5mg anavar is enough to cause hair shedding for some while studies have proven that in scientific rigor that neither dbol nor halo are proven to cause this
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@sushi_is_cringe
Can you share studies for the three steroids? -
@sushi_is_cringe I have thought about this issue for some time now (DHT derivatives causing hair loss). The standard explanation is quite straightforward: DHT causes hair loss. DHT derivatives are very similar to DHT. Therefore, DHT derivatives also cause hair loss.
That argument is, however, terrible.
That is because DHT does not cause hair loss. How do we know that? Because when DHT levels are the highest (during puberty), there is no male pattern baldness.
I have asked medical doctors about that fact specifically and I have had them reply: "well during puberty, estrogen levels in teenage boys are high to compensate for the high DHT".
I had to stop myself laughing. Aging males are known to have higher levels of estrogen than young males, and aging males are much more likely to be bald than young males. So, it looks like estrogen is not coming in to save the day for the DHT causes hairloss hypothesis.
Nevertheless, there is still the empirical fact that DHT derivatives do seem to cause hair loss (this can be debated -many of the cycles that cause hair loss also contain testosterone derivatives, or are employed during a "cutting phase" which is a time of huge physiological stress which could be a confounding variable- but let's assume it's true).
Am I without an explanation? Do I need to prostrate myself before the altar of the great DHT causes hairloss hypothesis? I don't think so.
My current thinking is that DHT derivatives "cause" hair loss because DHT derivatives cause micronutrient deficiencies that significantly affect the hair follicles that are very sensitive to such deprivations. Such micronutrients as: carnitine, zinc, folate, as well as amino acids like lysine are all "spent" on androgen receptor agonism in skeletal muscle, and so none are left over for the hair. Thus, hair loss results.
Unlike some hypotheses, this one should be testable. A positive test would be if you suffer hair loss from something like anavar, supplement with all the necessary micronutrients for the hair follicles, and observe no hair loss.
A negative test would be a lack of prevention of hair loss in the same scenario.
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@alfredoolivas no im repeating what someone who reads lots of studies is telling me
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@jamezb46 I didn't even know anavar is a dht steroid?
do you think carnitine supplementation is good? same dude recommends it , iirc 4-5g a day
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@sushi_is_cringe @alfredoolivas @jamezb46 how much protein do you guys think is good for 190lb-220lb male bodybuilding on gear? and how much at once per meal. I think 45g of protein + 10g gelatin/collagen peptides, 6 meals, so 270g + 60g protein total per day.
iirc jay cutler claims 5lb of meat a day when he competed, which when it is lean beef and chicken breast is almost 500g protein. in another interview he says 300-400g.
