Everything about high blood pressure
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@ursidae Yes, it's a good article. @Peatly linked to the thread where we discussed calcium and it's relation to PTH and high BP. If you're dealing with BP issues that doctors have generally just described as "idiopathic" and therefore trying to prescribe you meds, it may be worth giving calcium a shot first.
Calcium is the most neglected mineral in people's diets now days and according to evidence seems to be the most essential to regulating BP. It was even shown to lower blood pressure in people who were normotensive. Which is pretty profound for a standard little mineral.
I got family history of heart disease, high blood pressure, and kidney disease. I never leave home without my eggshells, lol.
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Thiamine
Just another consideration.
In this article Lonsdale says this is a hypothesis but it seems like a reasonable one. Pseudo Hypoxia can also be induced by injury or toxins.
Diet Induced Pseudo-Hypoxia and Hypertension
Another thiamine related article
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@Peatly Thiamine is worth a shot. I've never considered it for a BP intervention before but I do see the logic behind how that would work. Raising glucose oxidation and carbon dioxide will cause vasodilation. That RCT is interesting because the dose is so low. 100mg 3x daily is not that much at all. Which is good because the one concern I've always had with B1 supplementation is the high dosages depleting potassium levels, which would be bad for BP. 300mgs daily would not do this.
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@Mulloch94 You are correct, high dose thiamine does deplete potassium, or at least increase the requirement. We are not short on potassium on a peaty diet so I don’t worry about it too much. Supplementing thiamine requires balancing with lots of other nutrients.
There are so many things that block oxidative metabolism. I think we can presume that someone with hypertension does have a thiamine deficiency. Even if thiamine deficiency is not the direct cause of hypertension it should help along with other nutrients, for instance magnesium, which works in tandem with thiamine. Magnesium is a calcium channel blocker which lowers PTH unlike most pharmaceutical calcium channel blockers which raises PTH.
Also pufa blocks or depletes thiamine. I learnt about this for the first time from mostlylurking. Frankly, I think injecting pufa into our diets is probably the greatest crime against humanity. Yes, I do believe there is a eugenics depopulation agenda at play. Sorry wrong thread.
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A Broda Barnes' quote on the role of thyroid in hypertension
Hypertension (high blood pressure) is closely related to kidney function. Goldblatt 30 produced fatal hypertension in dogs many years ago by placing on the kidney artery a simple metal clamp that could be tightened periodically to restrict the flow of blood through the kidney. In hypothyroidism there is a reduction in blood-flow through all the organs including the kidneys. Atherosclerosis in the kidney artery could further reduce the blood flow as effectively as Goldblatt's clamp. Hypertension is very common in hypothyroidism. Rarnes3l has recently reported that thyroid therapy alone was found to relieve 80 percent of the elevated blood pressures seen in a general practice during the past 25 years. Children from patients with hypertension have been found low in thyroid function, and thyroid therapy in the offspring with hypertension has been quite efficacious.
The observations of Andersen leave little doubt that thyroid deficiency can be a potent factor in the genesis of atherosclerosis and hypertension in children. Obviously, if prevention is to be achieved, one must look continually for hypothyroid symptoms from the time of birth. The earlier a diagnosis of hypothyroidism can be made and appropriate therapy started, the better will be the chances of avoiding a premature death from a heart attack. Solved the Riddle of Heart Attacks by Broda Otto Barnes, 1976. Pg. 24-25
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@Peatly Another interesting correlation that thiamine, magnesium, and calcium all have in common is they increase pyruvate production via upregulating the rate-limited enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH). Further suggesting a connection between optimal glucose metabolism and BP control.
In regards to your thyroid statement, Broda Barnes' research is invaluable, and is something pretty everyone should read. Especially if they plan on using thyroid.
But there is other 3rd party data that supports Broda Barnes views, just in case people wanted a second opinion. https://www.nature.com/articles/hr201191#Sec15
"Clinical hypothyroidism is known to increase blood pressure levels, and the main underlying cause of this is thought to be the degree of systemic vascular resistance present in patients with clinical hypothyroidism. T3 can directly act on arterial smooth muscle cells of blood vessels to cause vasodilation. In hypothyroidism, declining T3 levels result in an increased vascular resistance, causing an increase in blood pressure. Hypothyroidism can also lead to abnormal sodium metabolism, increased sympathetic nervous system activity and a decreased glomerular filtration rate, which may contribute to the development of hypertension."
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@Mulloch94 Excellent
I was looking through my notes and came across this quote about the role of estrogen in blood pressure issues. It’s from an interview called Estrogen vs Progesterone.
The Role Of Estrogen in Blood Pressure Issues
Extract from interview
00:48:33.880 “And the more acute effects of estrogen dominance in the brain can include chorea, sort of uncontrolled, unexpected movements of the arms and legs and such, and epilepsy or seizures are promoted by estrogen. Water retention is really the first action of estrogen on the cell. In exciting it causes it to take up water. Anything that if you block the oxygen delivery to a cell, it'll take up water, too. So the excitation moves the cell's requirements to a level that can't be sustained so the oxygen becomes deficient. It takes up water and shifts its pH and electrical charge. And that same shift of water into the cell makes the walls of the blood vessels leaky to water. And so the water shifts, letting sodium and water both go into the tissues, causing the feet to swell up while you're standing up or during the night your face will share the water burden. The estrogen, that immediate water logging effect, can be compensated by the adrenal, the cortex, and the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone effect, which is to try to compensate for that leakiness by increasing the sodium retention in the kidney. At first, sodium falls in the estrogen dominance as it goes out of the bloodstream into the tissue, but then activating this blood pressure regulating system, you can shift from low blood pressure and swollen feet to high blood pressure and all of the stress-related cortisol-dominant syndrome. Even at an extreme, you can get gangrene constriction of the blood vessels of the extremities and the calcification of soft tissues that the old endocrine textbooks used to mention. That was another thing that Hans Selye investigated in great depth. He called it calciflaxis and calcirgy, in which the excited blood vessels first constrict and load up on calcium. Estrogen releasing histamine and serotonin precedes that, but calcification and then these injured areas tend to load up with iron in most cases, and the iron increases the breakdown-free radical production in these tissues. So, it can lead to such things as gangrene of the fingers and toes and scleroderma, hardening of the skin in various areas that are stressed. I've seen people recover in just a couple of weeks from scleroderma when they stopped using an estrogen supplement............
And progesterone and thyroid are the things that give you the basic long-term protection.” Ray Peat
Question @Mulloch94 - Dr Peat says "at first sodium falls." As the condition progresses does adding extra salt become helpful or harmful?
I'm going to listen to the full interview again
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@Peatly said in Everything about high blood pressure:
Question @Mulloch94 - Dr Peat says "at first sodium falls." As the condition progresses does adding extra salt become helpful or harmful?
Sounds kind of complicated but it appears he's referring to the water logging effect of estrogen, and how the RAAS steps in to compensate for estrogen's sodium lowering effect.
So if estrogen is activating aldosterone by flushing sodium, and aldosterone tells the kidney's to hold onto sodium, then in my (laymen) opinion is sounds like increasing salt intake solves both of these issues.
The extra salt can both attenuate aldosterone secretion and compensate for estrogen's flushing effects.
However, you should also probably increase potassium as well, because aldosterone's function for holding onto sodium is to dump potassium. So if someone is in this state, it's very likely they're low on potassium, possibly sodium as well, but also they got a unfavorable sodium:potassium balance.
But the underlying cause to all of this is the estrogen dominance to begin with. So that should ultimately be addressed to kill this nasty cycle.
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@Mulloch94 Thank you. I've noticed increase fluid retention which I think might be related to the potassium/sodium ratio. Frankly, I'm never comfortable throwing salt at problems - I can't manage more than one teaspoon a day. Will increase potassium and see what happens.
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@Peatly Yeah I don't really enjoy higher salt diets either. Not sure how people do it, too much salt makes my food uneatable. Only things that I can eat with a fair bit of salt are meat and potatoes. Everything else requires just a pinch for me.
It sounds like if I'm reading Ray's views correctly though, salt restricted diets are less dangerous when estrogen isn't high. Taking a few drops of Progest-E may compensate for a lower salt intake by preventing estrogen's flushing mechanism.
I'm not sure what constitutes as "salt restricted," but considering I average around 2,000-2,500mg a day, and the average American is around 4,000mg (or higher for some), I would say my diet is salt restricted.
I don't think eating "DASH" levels of sodium is good per se, they go crazy with it, recommending people eat up to or less than 1,500mgs daily. I think food would be really bland doing that.
And besides, we've already determined extreme salt restriction has - at best - a modest effect on blood pressure. And that eating sufficient amounts of calcium is more likely to bring BP down to manageable levels.
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From what I’ve read and experienced, it seems likely that cortisol is the main mineralocorticoid receptor ligand. So, if you have any chronic inflammation in your body(gut or otherwise), it is likely you will be unable to lower blood pressure until this is resolved. If that is the case, that should be the main focus.
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blood pressure should depend upon age. As we age, our vessels get less flexible and more clogged and we require higher pressure to prevent tissue hypoxia. People who are in their 60s or 70s or 80s are better off with 145/85 to 165/90 which is shown to be the best for longevity and healthy.
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@Ecstatic_Hamster - I agree and your point is is a very important reminder. One size (120/80) does not fit all.
My GP retired and his replacement wanted to place me on a low dose blood pressure medication. My blood pressure measured in his office was 123/78. He told me that there were new guidelines and that both of my numbers were too high! There was no counseling about diet, exercise or weight. I declined his offer for medication. I supsect that he wanted to hand me a script for a 3 month supply and then have me return to his office every 3 months for the rest of my life to have my blood pressure checked and then write a new script. This is the medical treadmill. They treat the numbers but not the patient.
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@Mulloch94 You are right salt restriction is not necessarily helpful for lowering BP. My question was specific to the situation Peat was talking about when estrogen is high. When he said ‘at first sodium falls’ made me wonder if later on sodium becomes harmful because it is being retained. Anyway, I tend to get the minimum required to restrain aldosterone, which is around 2000mg of sodium (a teaspoon of salt). I do use progest E but it has since stopped making a difference. I have a feeling that Dr. Peat would say we were not getting enough salt.
@DavidPS you have good BP. I can’t believe anyone would want to medicate such low numbers
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@Peatly Yeah probably so, according to Haidut's post about sodium on the old forum we're both consuming low amounts of sodium relative to what's promoted.
But I think as long as we consume just enough to maintain proper mineral balance we should probably be fine.
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@Peatly It's possible we could also supplement with sodium bicarbonate when we can't tolerate anymore salt. Sodium bicarbonate doesn't have the same effects on BP as sodium chloride.
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@DavidPS said in Everything about high blood pressure:
He told me that there were new guidelines and that both of my numbers were too high!
That's insane he tried to prescribe you meds. Even ten points higher at 133/88 BP is still acceptable without any chemical interventions. Probably not needed until you're at 140 or higher.
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@Mulloch94 - I agree about it being insane. But if a doctor prescribes a drug in accordance with the guidelines, he/she is not accountable for any negative health consequences of the prescription. I am thinking about increasing the risk of silent strokes.
Basically, IMHO the body regulates its blood pressure based on its needs. If your blood pressure is presistently high, you need to change your lifestyle (diet, weight, exercise). If you rely on drugs to lower your BP, your systolic pressure may not always be high enough to pump the blood (against gravity) into the upper parts of the brain. The end result could be a slient stroke which damges the brain and accumulate with time. The long term result is to zombify your brain.
I lowered my systolic pressure by about 15 points by lowering the amount of fat in my diet. Dietary fats are known to sludge the blood for hours and necessitates a rise in BP to feed blood to the brain.
Dr. McDougall has a very short video produced by Roy Swank (1909–2008) showing blood sludge and reuleux formation in the blood after a high fat meal. In the second video., Dr. McDougall states that there are no healthy fats. Here on the forum PUFAs (including fish oil) have been recognized as not being healthy. From a blood flow perspective, I could not find any evidence that saturated fats are healthy.
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@DavidPS I haven't been convinced by anyone that saturated fat is inherently healthy. Probably best to keep all fats on the lower side. Peat echoed this logic, despite the large pro-saturated fat trend on the old forum. In one of those herb doctor call-in shows someone asked Ray if it would be best to focus on saturated fat as a prmiary source of calories and he flat out said no.
His words exactly was something like "Get as much sugar or starch as possible, and keep fats to a minimum."
I always found that to be like a checkmate against the pro-saturated fat people. Which is important, because I get a feeling a lot of the former keto bros keep falling back into this logic that saturated fat is good, when it's really just benign in the best of scenarios. Probably not even benign though. It's likely harmful just in different ways from PUFA. The problem with PUFA is they accumulate and disrupt the electron transport chain cause ROS.
But there's some evidence to suggest saturated fat causes endoxemia in humans, which also causes systemic inflammation. In fact, the study posted showed SFA's were worse at this than PUFA's. There's also data that refutes some of this, like dairy fat and coconut fat being good for combating obesity. But the endotoxin thing should be most concerning in my opinion. And if we're going to keep things in a Peaty lens, Ray himself seem to believe sugar AND starch was better than saturated fat.
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@Mulloch94 - I have never heard any stories about someone who had a fat deficiency. If a person eats adequate calories, lipogenesis
provides the needed fat (and oftentimes more). It is my understanding that it is 100% saturated.PeatBot is is my tool of choice for keeping things within a Peaty lens. I read the sources listed at the end of the output. I consider PeatBot to be a bibilography generator. Here for example, William Brown caught my eye in the response to my question. With the help of PeatBot I found the interview that his work was discussed (Ray Peat KMUD: 9-21-12 Calcium and Phosphate Metabolism Full Interview).
User: is a low-fat diet healthy?
Peatbot: The context provided offers insights into a specific case where a low-fat diet, particularly one high in sugar and milk, had positive effects on an individual named William Brown. Brown's diet, which was essentially high in carbohydrates and calcium with a good calcium to phosphorus ratio, led to improvements in his health markers such as cholesterol levels, blood pressure, weight, and the cessation of migraine headaches. It also seemed to increase his metabolic rate and reduce feelings of fatigue.
However, it's important to note that the health effects of a low-fat diet can vary greatly from person to person. The context suggests that for some individuals, especially those with a PUFA (polyunsaturated fatty acids) overload, a diet high in carbohydrates and low in fat might be beneficial. It also mentions that the fats we synthesize from sugars are saturated and are not likely to be stored as excess fat because they don't suppress metabolism like polyunsaturated fats do.
The context also touches on the importance of having some fat in the diet for its effects on the intestine and nutrient absorption, and it suggests that if the fats are mostly saturated (as in butter, coconut oil, or beef or lamb fat), roughly a third of the calories from fat might be appropriate, though this can depend on individual factors like specific foods and activity levels.
Dr. Peat, whose views are represented in the context, seems to advocate for a diet that minimizes polyunsaturated fatty acids due to their breakdown into toxic fragments and inflammatory compounds. He also emphasizes the importance of sugars and minerals in fruits and milk for metabolic activation and prevention of free-radical damage.
In summary, while the context provides an example of a low-fat diet being beneficial for one individual, it also suggests that dietary needs can be highly individualized. It's important to consider personal health conditions, metabolic rates, and nutritional requirements when determining whether a low-fat diet is healthy for someone. Consulting with healthcare professionals and nutritionists is always recommended when making significant dietary changes.
