Do you drink coffee first thing in the morning?

Kvirion

@LucH Good that we (mostly) agree.

However, I would prefer advice from Ray Peat PhD himself.
Coffee Done Right – Tips to Help Avoid Coffee Intolerance

And Yes, there are advantages and disagreements with coffee. If you can modulate.

Yes, obviously it's context-dependent, so every (potential) coffee drinker needs to learn, experiment, and decide for themself. Perceive-Think-Act.

Kvirion

@LucH said in Do you drink coffee first thing in the morning?:

fiber, inulin

I would be careful with it...

The study below raises serious doubts about soluble fiber benefits. It found that despite the reduction in weight seen in animals fed soluble fiber, at least 40% of them developed liver cancer (HCC). Even worse, when the soluble fiber was combined with high-fat diet, the HCC incidence rose to 65% even in mice without gut dysbiosis. The study specifically tested inulin, pectin and FOS but states that the same mechanism is likely to manifest for any type of soluble fiber, including the widely used guar gum (even in organic products). The main experiment used a diet with 7.5% inulin but the study also tested diets with inulin content as low as 2.5% and found the same incidence of HCC. The soluble fiber was a causative "precursor" acting in synergy with gut bacteria. The bacteria digested the fiber and produced inflammatory metabolites, butyrate and bile acids. It was those metabolites and inflammation that caused the HCC. Butyrate fed on its own did not cause HCC but did fatten the liver when used in high amounts. However, unlike other studies, this one did NOT implicate endotoxin or its receptor (TLR4) as the sole cause because animals bred to be immune to endotoxin also developed cancer, albeit at lower rates. The study found that gut dysbiosis is required for HCC development, and specifically some bacterial species overpopulating the gut. The most prominent one was the Clostridia species. Soluble fiber administered to animals with sterile guts (as a result of antibiotics) or gut without dysbiosis did not result in HCC. This highlights once again the key role of gut health in almost any chronic disease - namely, undigested food or fiber feeds the bacteria in the colon and results in inflammation, fibrosis and eventually cancer. Endotoxin makes this process much more pathogenic but it is a not requirement for HCC to develop. More bad news - the animals with gut dysbiosis housed together with animals without resulted in the animals without dysbiosis also acquiring it, and developing HCC at the same rate if fed soluble fiber. So, this suggests that if we live among people with gut dysbiosis we tend to acquire it as well over time. In other words, the carcinogenicity potential is transmissible. I have seen evidence of this first-hand in the form of co-workers getting the same GI complaints after a few months of working along others with known GI issues.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/soluble-fiber-causes-liver-cancer-insoluble-and-antibiotics-prevent-stop-it.26165/

@LucH said in Do you drink coffee first thing in the morning?:

The management of blood sugar at breakfast (or at the 1st meal) will cut / influence the inulin response for the rest of the day.

However, if you meant "insulin response" there is a better source to learn from https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml plus for example this podcast

Kvirion

@LucH said in Do you drink coffee first thing in the morning?:

There are some advantages to drink milk if you can find A2 sort and not recombined from skimmed milk, which is not so evident to find, except if you live near a "diet market".

In an ideal world yes, but... get real. A1A2 milk still has more nutritional value than common fast food...

If you worry about the opioid casomorphin in A1 milk then...

Coffee (not caffeine), has anti-opioid activity which is primarily caused by the presence of 4-caffeoyl-1,5-quinide (4-CQL), and to a lesser extent, by other cinnamoyl-1,5-quinides.
A cup of coffee contains the equivalent of one‐third of a dose of naxolone (a drug used to block the effect of opioids).
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jcr.2014.0024?journalCode=jcr

LucH

@Kvirion said in Do you drink coffee first thing in the morning?:

However, if you meant "insulin response" there is a better source to learn from https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml plus for example this podcast

Yes, I meant insulin. Thanks for correcting.
Indeed, this post of RP is very interesting for interconnection between stress gestion and lacks of appropriate fuel.
"Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context."
Already in my favorite posts.
But not to analyze deeply why insulin spikes, how to manage to avoid them.
RP's advice for high orange juice didn't take into account that people need to adapt the quantity of sugar calories to the level of carburation. RP was hyper-thyroid.
One size doesn't fit all.

BioEclectic

Just inserting random opinion and personal observation, including things i've read over the years.

Coffee and milk being complementary of one another. Milk binding with certain unhelpful coffee tannins and lowering the acidity just a bit. Whereas the coffee helps with milk digestion to a certain degree and lowers the opiate response.

Related: adding a bit of baking soda to taste "allows" me to drink even more coffee per day if i choose to do so, 8-10 cups vs my regular average 5 or 6 (8oz cups). I do try to wait an hour or two after meals though, but i can easily have a cup 20 minutes or so before a meal. I typically have my first cup within 30 minutes of waking, and no longer feel any weird withdrawal headaches if i abstain for a whole day. I do not drink it light and sweet for the most part either.

Kvirion

@LucH said in Do you drink coffee first thing in the morning?:

You welcome

RP's advice for high orange juice didn't take into account that people need to adapt the quantity of sugar calories to the level of carburation. RP was hyper-thyroid.
One size doesn't fit all.

LOL! Ray never advised high OJ consumption for all, it was his example that he gave when someone asked what to consume with a very limited supply of food ingredients and with a low budget... His key advice was to Perceive-Think-Act i.e. highly customized/diversified nutritional/healing/living process of constant improvements/adjustments. You may want to study more of his in-depth works and less of random (out of context) quotes.

BTW it depends on what we define as normal... Common "norms" for thyroid levels are simply averages of many lab results plus some statistical tweaking. We know that people who take part in lab tests usually have health issues, moreover, we are living in a pretty unhealthy time...
Therefore, normal and optimal values may differ significantly.

I would like to recommend to you a book by Dr. Gabor Maté - The Myth of Normal.

Another aspect is a personal choice. Does a person want to be normal (fit-in average) or extraordinary...

Kvirion

@BioEclectic said in Do you drink coffee first thing in the morning?:

Coffee and milk being complementary of one another. Milk binding with certain unhelpful coffee tannins and lowering the acidity just a bit. Whereas the coffee helps with milk digestion to a certain degree and lowers the opiate response.

Exactly, fine summary, can't agree more.

Related: adding a bit of baking soda to taste "allows" [...]

Good one, I will try it tomorrow. Thanks.

LetTheRedeemed

For what it’s worth, Ray said he drank coffee first thing in the morning — of course he added sugar.

This of course requires plenty of carb calories virtually right away as many have explained here.

BioEclectic

@Kvirion
Careful with the amount of baking soda. If using a teaspoon try one very light tap into the coffee, stir with another spoon and taste. You may be able to put another tap or two before the flavor starts to degrade, depending. Stronger / more acidic coffee can take a tiny bit more baking soda and light and sweet drinkers may want to use a little less.

I use the box itself as opposed to a teaspoon, keeping the opening very small to prevent adding too much. Admittedly i do add other stuff to many of my coffees, but that's a topic for other conversations.

Kvirion

@BioEclectic said in Do you drink coffee first thing in the morning?:

Careful with the amount of baking soda.

Yeah, thanks. I usually use little amounts of it at first

BTW in the meantime, I found a claim that baking soda shouldn't be mixed with calcium - and milk obviously contains calcium. Not sure what to think about it...

Kvirion

I've found an interesting study - I haven't read (verified) the details and methodology yet, but some key conclusions seem interesting...

Common questions and misconceptions about caffeine supplementation: what does the scientific evidence really show?

In summary, though there may be an upside to delaying morning caffeine intake under conditions of sufficient sleep, this has to do with the magnitude of effect rather than proposed mechanisms related to prolonging the cortisol peak, continued declines in adenosine, or avoiding an afternoon “crash.” A significant drawback in the argument related to cortisol is that a similar effect occurs with intense resistance exercise performed soon after waking. Following this line of reasoning would imply that this type of early morning exercise should be avoided; however, this notion makes no scientific or pragmatic sense. The suggestion that adenosine continues to decline upon waking is also scientifically inaccurate and not supported by research. There is also no evidence that caffeine ingestion upon waking is somehow responsible for an afternoon “crash” or that delaying consumption would somehow prevent this if it did occur.

BioEclectic

@Kvirion
Ahh, milk alkali sydrome.

Using myself as an example, i'd say the amounts i use are tiny. Likely less than 1/8 tsp baking soda and let's say 50-60ml milk. Multiply that to 5 or 6 times a day.

But it sounds like something to take note of. Will read up on it a bit more and verify my daily doses, thank you for that heads up.

BioEclectic

@Kvirion
Coffee, caffeine and milk are each complicated topics. No one size fits all answer for any of them. And i still mean to follow up on some of the interesting info that @LucH brought up previously, the website and maybe even skimming the book since i can see that it's available elsewhere.