Edema with water logged lungs / heart atrial fibrillation / pleural fluid around the lungs - approach to fix

[DavidPS]

There is good information in this thread. Thany you (all).

User: how to reduce edema?

Peatbot.com: To reduce edema, consider the following strategies based on the provided context:

1. Increase Protein Intake: Ensure you are consuming enough protein, as proteins help maintain the osmotic pressure that keeps water in the blood vessels. Low protein levels can lead to water accumulation in tissues.

2. Monitor Sodium Intake: While too much sodium can cause water retention, a deficiency can also lead to edema. Balance your sodium intake to ensure it is neither too high nor too low.

3. Support Liver Health: The liver produces proteins that help maintain fluid balance. Eating liver at least twice a week and avoiding allergens that could disturb liver function can be beneficial.

4. Consider Hormonal Balance: High estrogen levels can promote sodium retention and water accumulation. Natural progesterone might help in reducing estrogen's effects and improving fluid balance.

5. Vitamin and Mineral Support: Ensure adequate intake of vitamins and minerals that support protein synthesis and blood vessel integrity, such as:

• Vitamin A and Zinc: For efficient protein synthesis.

• Vitamin C and Rutin: To maintain the integrity of blood vessel walls.

• Vitamin B12 and Vitamin E: To help utilize vitamin A efficiently.

6. Avoid Certain Foods: Foods like cabbages, radishes, mustard, peanuts, and soybeans can interfere with thyroid function, which can affect fluid balance. Cooking these foods can reduce their negative effects.

7. Use Progesterone: Progesterone can help reduce edema by increasing the binding capacity of albumin, which helps retain water in the blood vessels.

8. Exercise: Regular physical activity can improve circulation and help reduce fluid retention in tissues.

9. Adequate Sleep: Ensure you are getting enough sleep, as it helps the body to reabsorb excess fluid.

10. Manage Stress: Stress can affect liver function and protein synthesis, so managing stress through relaxation techniques can be helpful.

[cs3000]

@yerrag wild situation, and amazing that u bounced back from that extreme

Effect of coenzyme Q10 therapy in patients with congestive heart failure: a long-term multicenter randomized study
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8241697/

• The improved cardiac function in patients with congestive heart failure treated with coenzyme Q10 supports the hypothesis that this condition is characterized by mitochondrial dysfunction and energy starvation, so that it may be ameliorated by coenzyme Q10 supplementation. However, the main clinical problems in patients with congestive heart failure are the frequent need of hospitalization and the high incidence of life-threatening arrhythmias, pulmonary edema, and other serious complications.
  randomly assigned to receive either placebo (n = 322, mean age 67 years, range 30-88 years) or coenzyme Q10 (n = 319, mean age 67 years, range 26-89 years) at the dosage of 2 mg/kg per day in a 1-year double-blind trial.
  The number of patients who required hospitalization for worsening heart failure was smaller in the coenzyme Q10 treated group (n = 73) than in the control group (n = 118, P < 0.001).
  Similarly, the episodes of pulmonary edema or cardiac asthma were reduced in the control group (20 versus 51 and 97 versus 198, respectively; both P < 0.001) as compared to the placebo group. Our results demonstrate that the addition of coenzyme Q10 to conventional therapy significantly reduces hospitalization for worsening of heart failure and the incidence of serious complications in patients with chronic congestive heart failure.

Case of edema + heart failure fixed by t3:t4 combo
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10329947/

• At 6 weeks after T3 and T4 administration, his heart function had noticeably recovered with a left ventricular end-diastolic diameter of 71.5 mm and LVEF of 35%, and his weight had decreased from 93.8 kg to 71.7 kg without pitting edema.

Case Report: Severe Edema and Marked Weight Gain Induced by Marginal Thiamine Deficiency in a Patient With Alcohol Dependency and Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus

Based on such findings, we think it is possible that severe edema in the whole body and significant weight gain were, at least in part, induced by thiamine deficiency itself, although he had various causes of fluid retention due to alcohol dependency.

{{mostlylurking breaks through the wall}}

• In addition, since we considered that the severe edema in the whole body and significant weight gain were, at least in part, caused by thiamine deficiency, we started fursultiamine hydrochloride (50 mg/once a day) for seven days. The plasma vitamin B1 concentration was increased to 853 ng/mL (reference interval: 24–66 ng/mL)

His body weight was decreased by 18 kg two weeks later and was 83.2 kg at discharge.

• His conditions of the heart, liver, and renal function did not substantially change during the period of exacerbation of his edema and weight gain. In addition, ALT, AST, creatinine, and BUN were rather increased mildly probably due to dehydration 12 days after admission when body weight was decreased (Tables 1, 2; Figure 3). Thereafter, his liver and renal function were gradually improved (Figure 3). These results suggest the possibility that the significant decline in body weight in this patient was, at least in part, attributed to the treatment of mild thiamine deficiency.

In addition [to the alcohol & hypo] , the long-term administration of the diuretic drug for heart failure may lead to thiamine deficiency through increased thiamine excretion

• prior studies have demonstrated that TD exerts an unfavorable effect on cardiac contractility in the long term, which can clinically manifest as heart failure.3-5 when there is an undernourished dietary history and chronic alcohol intake, physicians can reasonably suspect this disease

A Case of Cardiac Beriberi: A Forgotten but Memorable Disease

A 72-year-old female presented at our emergency department with 1-week febrile sense, progressive dyspnea, and generalized edema , intermittent abdominal pain localized to the right upper quadrant for four months. Peripheral oxygen saturation was approximately 100% without oxygen supplementation despite subjective dyspneic complaint

• with mild pulmonary congestion and pleural effusion (pleural effusion = fluid at bottom surrounding part of lung) ****pleural fluid is yellow

• intravenous thiamine administration was initiated for the next seven days, which was subsequently switched to oral vitamin B complex. With thiamine supplementation, the patient's condition steadily and gradually improved. Liver enzymes and total bilirubin were restored to normal levels a week later, and she was given permission to leave hospital two weeks after admission.

• Follow-up echocardiography performed six months later revealed that her cardiac condition had dramatically improved: LV end-diastolic dimension decreased from 70 mm to 61 mm with a concomitant increase in LV ejection fraction to 43%, systolic pulmonary artery pressure was significantly decreased to 38 mm Hg, and the pericardial effusion that was present before the initiation of treatment was gone (Fig. 3C and D). The patient's subjective complaints of dyspnea and generalized edema were also no longer present.

Note:
here someone with thiamine deficiency without alcohol intake had the edema fixed by thiamine, BUT it caused pulmonary edema in this case and diuretics had to be added with it to fully fix. because of the thiamine suddenly creating changes in vasoconstriction (why its best to take it slow with the dose unless are currently on diuretics) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7028406/

@razvan yeh, i think its common to just drink it for its own sake as a default. i did until recently and noticed its very easy to tip over to clear urine with a small amount of water in hypo, & increase adrenaline

[Mr. X]

My Mum is hospitalized since 2 months ive been there every day for couple of hours.

She had/has:

-Pneumonia
-water in the lungs and body
-fever
-need for an oxygen machine
-Heart valve inflammation, but is back to half of the inflammation after 6 weeks of 3 different antibiotics 6 times per day IV
-COPD (was already before but nothing crazy)
-2-3 little strokes
-atrial fibrillation in the heart (endocarditis)
-stomach inflammation now put on PPI
-black stool (gastroscopy found nothing)
-loose stool since starting of the antibiotics
-kidney dialysis started today

-shes getin lasifix to get the water out of the body and potassium nearly daily.

Many things above are resolved and is goin in the right direction, after 2 months. But what scarest me the most and what is getting worser every day since 1-2 weeks. She has problem finding words, cant speak probably I cant nearly understand nothing what she is sayin. And her memory is almost gone. She is confused.

I want to do anything for her, can some of you put me into a direction with the speaking, memory, confused etc. What should I look for vitmans? minerals? Electrolytes? Glucose in the brain is missing? Dextrose ? B1? Prog? T3?

[yerrag]

@Mr-X

Having been in the ICU and treated for heart failure, as well as having taken care of both parents in their twilight, with their recurring hospital admissions in their twilight before they passed, I can offer some observations that may help you that is separate from the supplementation which you will usually get in this forum.

One is that your mom is likely to be in an acidic situation. The stresses she has undergone and the treatments she is getting likely gets her system to be very acidic. One way you can tell is if you ask an attending nurse, her breath rate is likely to be way above 14 or minute, and the higher above it, the more acidic her condition is. Her heart rate would be high because the acidic state she's in causes the body to compensate by releasing potassium for her cells to the blood while drawing hydrogen ions in her blood to her cells, in an effort to reduce the acidity (potassium being less acidic than hydrogen ions). Because of this, the cell loses its role thru potassium in regulating calcium into the cell. So much so that the needed graident in cellular calcium to extracellular calcium is lessened, and this causes muscles to lose its ability to contract and to relax as efficiently. The heart being a muscle, would also be strained and inefficient in pumping blood, and this causes it to pump more, and this is why the heart rate increases.

Sorry if I can't explain the above much more simply and in a shorter way, but the net of it is that she is very acidic extracellularly (blood and the extracellular fluids) and what makes it worse is that she is low in CO2, which is the main pH buffering agent of the body, as CO2 readily converts to acid (carbonic acid) and to a base (bicarbonate) depending on the pH state of the body at any given time and how much it deviates from the ideal pH of the body.

At her condition now, her body does poorly in regulating pH thru the lungs and the kidneys. Her lungs are in the process of healing, and is likely to do a poor job regulating pH.

And she is likely, at her state, running on a low metabolic pathway of glycolysis and producing lactic acid instead of CO2. It doesn't help that her blood is low on CO² already and this gets in the way of good tissue oxygenation, which sets her body with no choice but to run on glycolysis.

A way out of this dilemma of a vicious cycle is to provide your mom with exogenous sources of CO2.

In a hospital setting, breathing carbogen is banned so that option is put. What would help is to give her magnesium bicarbonate to drink. This might be frowned upon by the doctors and nurses, but you can do this easily as magnesium bicarbonate looks like water- transparent.

Why this is helpful is that magnesium bicarbonate is easy to drink and it contains plenty of bicarbonate- what your body needs to counter the acidic ecf. It will also improve the tissue oxygenation of your tissues, by increasing the CO2 in your blood to allow blood to release the oxygen your tissues need so much right now.

And did I say your brain needs this even more? It is probably why your mom is now having brain issues because of the lack of oxygen getting into your brain.

To make magnesium bicarbonate, go to:

https://drdavisinfinitehealth.com/2020/05/magnesium-water-step-by-step/

The RDA for magnesium is 400 mg elemental magnesium per day. Depending on how your mom takes to it, she can have as much as 800-1000mg, on a therapeutic basis. See if she can handle it, as the risk is small with possible diarrhea (bit I doubt thst would happen unless she is doing this on a long term). There is no toxicity of magnesium overload, as the body would excrete it via diarrhea if that happens, but chances are your mom is deficient, as most people are.

[yerrag]

@yerrag said in Edema with water logged lungs / heart atrial fibrillation / pleural fluid around the lungs - approach to fix:

@Mr-X

Having been in the ICU and treated for heart failure, as well as having taken care of both parents in their twilight, with their recurring hospital admissions in their twilight before they passed, I can offer some observations that may help you that is separate from the supplementation which you will usually get in this forum.

One is that your mom is likely to be in an acidic situation. The stresses she has undergone and the treatments she is getting likely gets her system to be very acidic. One way you can tell is if you ask an attending nurse, her breath rate is likely to be way above 14 or minute, and the higher above it, the more acidic her condition is. Her heart rate would be high because the acidic state she's in causes the body to compensate by releasing potassium for her cells to the blood while drawing hydrogen ions in her blood to her cells, in an effort to reduce the acidity (potassium being less acidic than hydrogen ions). Because of this, the cell loses its role thru potassium in regulating calcium into the cell. So much so that the needed graident in cellular calcium to extracellular calcium is lessened, and this causes muscles to lose its ability to contract and to relax as efficiently. The heart being a muscle, would also be strained and inefficient in pumping blood, and this causes it to pump more, and this is why the heart rate increases.

Sorry if I can't explain the above much more simply and in a shorter way, but the net of it is that she is very acidic extracellularly (blood and the extracellular fluids) and what makes it worse is that she is low in CO2, which is the main pH buffering agent of the body, as CO2 readily converts to acid (carbonic acid) and to a base (bicarbonate) depending on the pH state of the body at any given time and how much it deviates from the ideal pH of the body.

At her condition now, her body does poorly in regulating pH thru the lungs and the kidneys. Her lungs are in the process of healing, and is likely to do a poor job regulating pH.

And she is likely, at her state, running on a low metabolic pathway of glycolysis and producing lactic acid instead of CO2. It doesn't help that her blood is low on CO² already and this gets in the way of good tissue oxygenation, which sets her body with no choice but to run on glycolysis.

A way out of this dilemma of a vicious cycle is to provide your mom with exogenous sources of CO2.

In a hospital setting, breathing carbogen is banned so that option is put. What would help is to give her magnesium bicarbonate to drink. This might be frowned upon by the doctors and nurses, but you can do this easily as magnesium bicarbonate looks like water- transparent.

Why this is helpful is that magnesium bicarbonate is easy to drink and it contains plenty of bicarbonate- what your body needs to counter the acidic ecf. It will also improve the tissue oxygenation of your tissues, by increasing the CO2 in your blood to allow blood to release the oxygen your tissues need so much right now.

And did I say your brain needs this even more? It is probably why your mom is now having brain issues because of the lack of oxygen getting into your brain.

To make magnesium bicarbonate, go to:

https://drdavisinfinitehealth.com/2020/05/magnesium-water-step-by-step/

The RDA for magnesium is 400 mg elemental magnesium per day. Depending on how your mom takes to it, she can have as much as 800-1000mg, on a therapeutic basis. See if she can handle it, as the risk is small with possible diarrhea (bit I doubt thst would happen unless she is doing this on a long term). There is no toxicity of magnesium overload, as the body would excrete it via diarrhea if that happens, but chances are your mom is deficient, as most people are.

[yerrag]

@Mr-X

Also, thiamine would help. It would lower the lactic acid levels. As I understand it, it would make it possible for lactic acid converted to glucose, thus lowering lactic acid levels in blood. This would allow more CO² to be in the blood, and thus improve tissue oxygenation.

If you can ask to have around 1000mg daily via IV, your doctor would know that this is SOP in ERs and agree to it.

[Razvan]

@yerrag Is there anychance sodium bicarbonate could do the same?

[yerrag]

@Razvan said in Edema with water logged lungs / heart atrial fibrillation / pleural fluid around the lungs - approach to fix:

@yerrag Is there anychance sodium bicarbonate could do the same?

It can, but it is harder to take. For the patient, mag bicarb is like drinking water.

[yerrag]

@yerrag

It is much better to get some some magnesium than sodium while at it.

[yerrag]

@Razvan said in Edema with water logged lungs / heart atrial fibrillation / pleural fluid around the lungs - approach to fix:

@yerrag Is there anychance sodium bicarbonate could do the same?

Magnesium also calms the brain. It will keep neurons from energy failure when there are excitotoxic effects coming from some drugs prescribed by doctors, who are often unaware or choose to be oblivious to such side effects. The drug would cause neurons to get so excited and it would lead the neurons to use a lot of energy from being excited, and when no energy can. e supplied, the neurons could die and this would lead to a coma.

I once gave my mom a food blend that had magnesium in it. She was near a state of coma but could still be spoonfed. The neurologist told me my mom would likely have to go to a hospice to slowly die. But with the food, she slowly emerged from a near comatose state to being able to walk out of the hospital upon discharge. That is why magnesium is so important.

[Mr. X]

@yerrag nice story and thanks for your help.
I gave my mom today a multivitamin/mineral capusle nearly everything in it u can imagine with all of it nearly 100% of RDA. Than I gave her 250mg Thiamine HCL, 150mg benfothiamine, 450mg magnesiumbisglycinate all orally and vitamin d in mct oil topically on her legs. Within a couple of minutes her eyes got more wide open, she could speak better and also menory was better but than i think the energy boost gave her hyperventilation she couldnt retain the co2 she started sweating and put nearly all clothes off and she said she is getting a panic attack. My magnoil is empty i must order a new bottle, this would be perfect to rub on her body. I had also energin with me but was scared that someone saw the yellow residue from the b2. I think tmrw i half the dose on the thiamine hcl and benfo and everything else the same.

She said by herself after i gave everything to her today that its a little bit better finding the words and speak better. I was so sad to put her in the bad situation with the hyperventalation and panic attack

The kidney dialysis since 2 days fucks her up big time she is so weak since the start but i think the regime above will help her in the long run

[yerrag]

Glad to see your mom feeling better.

[Mr. X]

@yerrag thanks a lot for your help. I will achieve the same with my mother like you did. She didnt walk for over 2 months but we‘ll left the hospital on her feet soon.

Today I gave her:

1x multi/mineral capsule with everything 100%RDA
1x thiamine HCL 125mg
1x benfothiamine 75mg
1x squeeze of vitamin d topically on her legs in mct oil
5x drops of energin (haiduts b complex) topically on her leg
1x 450mg mag bisglycinate

So I cut the dose on half for thiamine HCL, benfothiamine and vitamin d.

Today she is fine without the hyperventalition and panic attacks, even after half an hour 2 different nurses also said you looking better, you can speak better and and your mind is clearer.
And she said by herself her mind is clearer.

I think I overdid it with the B1 yesterday from zero to hundred too fast.

Now she is asleep, I‘m so happy

[yerrag]

@Mr-X Very nice!

[Mauritio]

@yerrag Happy you survived man !

[yerrag]

@Mauritio Yeah, very thankful!

[Mr. X]

@yerrag what do you think about adding sodium bicarbonate to the stack for my mum?
She gets potassium from pills from the hospital, now magnesium from me but she has literally no salt every food there is salt less.

And also what I think might could is haiduts pyrucet to get her faster out of lactic acidosis

What do you think?

[yerrag]

@Mr-X said in Edema with water logged lungs / heart atrial fibrillation / pleural fluid around the lungs - approach to fix:

@yerrag what do you think about adding sodium bicarbonate to the stack for my mum?
She gets potassium from pills from the hospital, now magnesium from me but she has literally no salt every food there is salt less.

And also what I think might could is haiduts pyrucet to get her faster out of lactic acidosis

What do you think?

From a distance, it is very hard to know what the doctors are giving your mom, much less your mom's medical history. All I know was your mom has been confined for 2 months and has progressed a lot but has issues involving her memory and speech and is confused somehow, and for me it suggested thst the treatments are leaving her in a poor state of acud base balance. And my idea isn't to get too complicated with a lot of supplementation and what not as that becomes an endless litany. I suggested thiamine and magnesium bicarbonate as a start.

Unfortunately, it appears impossible take your own magnesium bicarbonate because Germany has a shortage of usable milk of magnesia and getting magnesium hydroxide would take time.

So you make do with the situation and use magnesium of other forms, thereby the bicarbonate was left out. And now you have to make do with sodium bicarbonate. That seems reasonable, except that I'm just frustrated that you have to make amends with what the system has imposed on our choices.

You can't get carbogen, even though in Europe Linde sells it but only with prescription. But your doctor should have said no as that is not the usual protocol (a guess I make). So an end run around that lack of choice is to give your mom magnesium bicarbonate. But that is another impenetrable wall. So another end run is, as you suggest, to take sodium bicarbonate, and make a good take on it by saying she may be short on sodium and so why not? And then another end run is to take Pyrucet.

This goes back to you ending up taking a litany of supplements because a simple substance, carbon dioxide can't be breathed in via use of carbogen. The next best thing, magnesium bicarbonate is also seemingly impossible.

I guess I have no choice but to say go ahead take sodium bicarbonate. And take pyrucet also.

It feels like betting on a horse race and being told you can't bet this horse for first place, nor another for second, nor a third one for third, and I can't even win a trifecta.

But never mind about sports betting. But betting on a patient's life and chances for a healthy recovery is just plain impossible. Given the odds imposed on you.

I've been through that myself, and I can't tell you how sick to the stomach that feels. I can't expect you to fight as much as I did against the system. I fought hard for my mom because I failed to fight as hard for my dad earlier. But I was still ignorant of the system and of Peat's ideas when my dad needed me, but with my mom, I was very convinced I knew what I was doing, and a doctor had to resign because I was adamant in not following her. When my mom recovered from what the doctor diagnosed as a certain coma that she considered permanent and suggested for my mom to go to the hospice to await her time, I was happy to see streams of interns visiting my mom as she was exhibit A of a patient who recovered from a hopeless case. I never asked, but I wondered if they knew that it was the food blend I made that contained magnesium that made the difference between her heading back home walking and lucid, and her facing final judgment at the hospice. When I thanked Ray Peat in an email, he was very happy to hear of it.

That is the hospital system which epitomizes the sad condition we are all in.

By the way, the potassium pill they give her - is just to make up for the wasting of potassium due to the diuretics they gave her to make her release the water in her lungs and everywhere else there is edema. But I have no idea how that is done, but it is painful dealing with the cramps that is part of using diuretic. I hope some day someone can explain that, and Ray likely would have- if he were still with us.

[yerrag]

@Mr-X

As far as Pyrucet goes, I give that idea a thumbs down. It is risky.

It purports to make the GSSG/GSH go very high, but what haidut does not say is that a high GSH/GSSG ratio is needed to make our mucus thin instead of thick. This may just make your mom's lungs stuck with mucus and this would interfere with her breathing. Isn't your mom dealing with COPD? Pyrucet may just aggravate her COPD condition.

As fsr your mom undergoing dialysis, did she get started on it after hospital admission, or way before?

[cs3000]

@Mr-X
in a similar situation i would go lower with the thiamine even, and with the mag and vit D too i would take it lower, at least initially if taking, as can become problematic in low energy states
theres a lot of complexities tho, and a lot going on

Does she still have an infection / still on antibiotics?
is she getting some glucose/carbs & amino acids?