Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?

@Butter-Girl I'm pretty sure the answer is "no". Ray Peat warned against eating nuts and seeds and grains because of the pufa in them. He said a few macadamia nuts might be OK because their oil is more saturated because they grow in a hotter climate. However, I spit some out a few months ago because they tasted rancid so I won't do that again.

sphagnum

@Butter-Girl
Are you asking about how the body uses specifically just the oil in the whole nut, as opposed to the pure oil after processing? Or are you asking about how it uses everything else in the nut as well, like the fiber and protein?

Since I'm uncertain of the exact question at hand, I'll give some general info and hope that it manages to answer in some way.

Just about any nut (or seed) oil that is processed for consumption as a food is going to be almost all polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA.) Exceptions that I'm aware of would be macadamia nuts, and palm kernel oil. To avoid any confusion, some other food oils that are not mostly PUFA are coconut, palm, olive, and avocado oils, but these all come from the fruit flesh of the plant and not their nut/seed.
PUFA, even when not processed, is prone to oxidation, which is in large part why it is often considered toxic to the body. Extracting the oil greatly increases its surface area exposed to oxygen, thus making it much worse in this sense. However, even whole nuts are going to be exposed enough to risk rancidity.
As I alluded to, there is a variance in oxidation based on the level of exposure. Oil is going to be highest. Loose nuts would be next. Then nuts still in a hard shell. Finally, nuts that have the flesh in tact around the shell are generally the least oxidized. If you find a fresh black walnut fruit this time of year (early autumn in the US) and cut it open, remove the shell, then break open the shell, you will taste a walnut that is nothing like anything you've even gotten from the store, including the ones still sealed in the shell at the store.
Heating PUFA is going to cause it to oxidize even more. I have not seen many nut or seed oils that are cold pressed, so you can assume that most of the processed nut/seed oils are going to be more toxic for this reason as well. If they are used for cooking, that is obviously taking the oxidation even farther.
Heating, of course, is not restricted to the oils. Many nuts in their whole state are often roasted to enhance palatability. Most any nut is going to be at least steam treated or pasteurized in some way. Even packages labeled as "Raw" may have been heat treated as there is no legal definition (in the US at least) as to what "raw" means. Cashews, for example, cannot be truly raw because they contain a toxin similar to poison ivy that is only neutralized by heating them. Search for "raw cashews" online, though, and you'll get plenty of hits. Another example of this would be almonds. All USA grown almonds sold on the market must, by law, be pasteurized. So if you have California almonds (the most abundant variety domestically) and they're labeled "raw," unless you bought them direct from the farmer before heat treating, its a lie. Imported almonds aren't subject to this law in case that particular food interested you.

So, to summarize, I don't know that the body is going to "use" them any different, but the total amount of PUFA exposure, as well as how toxic it is due to oxidation, is going to vary greatly. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that the more toxic the PUFA in the body's system during digestion, the more likely it is to be shuttled off to be stored as body fat, to avoid it causing issue anywhere else.

sphagnum

@mostlylurking I had bought a bunch of macadamias in the past and kept them refrigerated, but then the same thing happened where they eventually tasted rancid so I trashed them. Macadamias are highest in MUFA, which while not as dangerous as PUFA, is still very much prone to oxidation/rancidity.

Butter Girl

@sphagnum said in Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?:

@Butter-Girl
Are you asking about how the body uses specifically just the oil in the whole nut, as opposed to the pure oil after processing? Or are you asking about how it uses everything else in the nut as well, like the fiber and protein?

To be more specific, I was asking are nuts in their natural state right out of the shell, as detrimental (pufa wise) as a processed nut, aka like an oil or butter.
I would think the latter would be more detrimental to the body being processed, as opposed to a nut in it’s natural state.

That’s what I was wondering about.

LucH

@Butter-Girl said in Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?:

That’s what I was wondering about.

Question of time, according to compo.
There are 1 or 2 exceptions. olive oil e.g. (polyphenols = conservative).
sphagnum has already explained why.
Tree > fresh nuts harbored > Shell in store > opened > processed and finally eaten.
SFA > MUFA > PUFA: LA > ALA > DHA

Butter Girl

@sphagnum said in Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?:

@Butter-Girl
Are you asking about how the body uses specifically just the oil in the whole nut, as opposed to the pure oil after processing? Or are you asking about how it uses everything else in the nut as well, like the fiber and protein?

Since I'm uncertain of the exact question at hand, I'll give some general info and hope that it manages to answer in some way.

Just about any nut (or seed) oil that is processed for consumption as a food is going to be almost all polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA.) Exceptions that I'm aware of would be macadamia nuts, and palm kernel oil. To avoid any confusion, some other food oils that are not mostly PUFA are coconut, palm, olive, and avocado oils, but these all come from the fruit flesh of the plant and not their nut/seed.

PUFA, even when not processed, is prone to oxidation, which is in large part why it is often considered toxic to the body. Extracting the oil greatly increases its surface area exposed to oxygen, thus making it much worse in this sense. However, even whole nuts are going to be exposed enough to risk rancidity.

As I alluded to, there is a variance in oxidation based on the level of exposure. Oil is going to be highest. Loose nuts would be next. Then nuts still in a hard shell. Finally, nuts that have the flesh in tact around the shell are generally the least oxidized. If you find a fresh black walnut fruit this time of year (early autumn in the US) and cut it open, remove the shell, then break open the shell, you will taste a walnut that is nothing like anything you've even gotten from the store, including the ones still sealed in the shell at the store.

Heating PUFA is going to cause it to oxidize even more. I have not seen many nut or seed oils that are cold pressed, so you can assume that most of the processed nut/seed oils are going to be more toxic for this reason as well. If they are used for cooking, that is obviously taking the oxidation even farther.

Heating, of course, is not restricted to the oils. Many nuts in their whole state are often roasted to enhance palatability. Most any nut is going to be at least steam treated or pasteurized in some way. Even packages labeled as "Raw" may have been heat treated as there is no legal definition (in the US at least) as to what "raw" means. Cashews, for example, cannot be truly raw because they contain a toxin similar to poison ivy that is only neutralized by heating them. Search for "raw cashews" online, though, and you'll get plenty of hits. Another example of this would be almonds. All USA grown almonds sold on the market must, by law, be pasteurized. So if you have California almonds (the most abundant variety domestically) and they're labeled "raw," unless you bought them direct from the farmer before heat treating, its a lie. Imported almonds aren't subject to this law in case that particular food interested you.

So, to summarize, I don't know that the body is going to "use" them any different, but the total amount of PUFA exposure, as well as how toxic it is due to oxidation, is going to vary greatly. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that the more toxic the PUFA in the body's system during digestion, the more likely it is to be shuttled off to be stored as body fat, to avoid it causing issue anywhere else.

“If you find a fresh black walnut fruit this time of year (early autumn in the US) and cut it open, remove the shell, then break open the shell, you will taste a walnut that is nothing like anything you've even gotten from the store, including the ones still sealed in the shell at the store.

Interesting, I used to have black walnut trees around my old home, but I never tasted them.

Yeah, I was thinking that the processing of nuts might make them more detrimental than if in their natural state. But as Luch had mentioned in another comment, it could be the time element of how long the nuts are exposed to air and thus oxidized that makes it worse.

I suppose a freshly picked nut just grown on a tree and then eaten might be ok once in a while?

But unless you have nut trees around your home, you are stuck with store bought nuts that have probably already been sitting in warehouses, shelves for a long time.

LucH

@Butter-Girl said in Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?:

I suppose a freshly picked nut just grown on a tree and then eaten might be ok once in a while?

Nuts not too often because of PUFA's even if more or less balanced between w3/w6 for wlanuts. Pecan nuts are better (anti-oxydant) than wlanuts if raw (not roasted).
Macadamia nuts contain few PUFA but MUFA. Still to be consumed with sufficient rotation and well stored.
The whole family nuts should be taken with moderation (1 portion = 30 gr max), not every day.
And you're supposed to take a supplement of vitamin E if you do so.

sphagnum

@Butter-Girl depending on how far you moved, there might be some trees close by. It wasn’t until I identified what a black walnut fruit looked like that I realized they’re all over around me, mostly on public land.

Yeah, I imagine an occasion single nut off the tree isn’t going to do much harm. I still wouldn’t make a habit of it, but I wouldn’t fret over it either.
Considering the work involved, most people wouldn’t bother getting to the point of overeating them straight off the tree.

I know that TerraSoul sells some nuts direct from refrigeration when you buy from their website. I used to get their Brazil nuts and keep them cold, eating one a day for selenium, after scraping the skin off *a seed/nut’s skin is where their phytic acid is concentrated, and that stuff will bind up important nutrients, including but not limited to calcium, magnesium, zinc, selenium, and potassium. Contrary to what you read online, soaking doesn’t always fix this, especially if the seed/nut isn’t viable to sprout (heat treated/irradiated/broken/deshelled in some cases)

I definitely second what LucH said in regards to using Vitamin E to reduce harmful effects.

@sphagnum said in Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?:

@Butter-Girl
Are you asking about how the body uses specifically just the oil in the whole nut, as opposed to the pure oil after processing? Or are you asking about how it uses everything else in the nut as well, like the fiber and protein?

Since I'm uncertain of the exact question at hand, I'll give some general info and hope that it manages to answer in some way.

Just about any nut (or seed) oil that is processed for consumption as a food is going to be almost all polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA.) Exceptions that I'm aware of would be macadamia nuts, and palm kernel oil. To avoid any confusion, some other food oils that are not mostly PUFA are coconut, palm, olive, and avocado oils, but these all come from the fruit flesh of the plant and not their nut/seed.

just a heads up about the avocado oil; Ray Peat warned about the toxicity of avocados here: https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml
"Not all fruits, of course, are perfectly safe--avocados, for example, contain so much unsaturated fat that they can be carcinogenic and hepatotoxic."
from the references: In Vivo 1998 Nov-Dec;12(6):675-89. "The promotive tumorigenic effects of other high-fat diets (avocado, soybeans) were associated with high content of some polyunsaturated fatty acids (linoleic and alpha-linolenic)."
also: Ann Nutr Metab 1991;35(5):253-60. "Effect of dietary avocado oils on hepatic collagen metabolism. Wermam MJ, Mokady S, Neeman I Department of Food Engineering and Biotechnology, Technion - Israel Institute of Technology, Haifa. The effect of various avocado and soybean oils on collagen metabolism in the liver was studied in growing female rats for 8 weeks and in day-old chicks for 1 week. In comparison with rats fed either refined avocado oil, refined or unrefined soybean oils, rats fed unrefined avocado oil showed a significant decrease in total collagen solubility in the liver, while there were no changes in total collagen, protein and moisture content. Chicks fed unrefined avocado oil as compared to those fed refined avocado oil also showed a decrease in hepatic total soluble collagen while hepatic total collagen remained unaffected. Electron micrographs and light-microscope examinations of rats' liver revealed collagen accumulation in the periportal location. This is suggestive of the early stages of fibrosis."

PUFA, even when not processed, is prone to oxidation, which is in large part why it is often considered toxic to the body. Extracting the oil greatly increases its surface area exposed to oxygen, thus making it much worse in this sense. However, even whole nuts are going to be exposed enough to risk rancidity.

The problem with PUFA is that it is highly susceptible to oxidation after it is eaten. Chew up some nuts, even nice fresh ones, extract the oil from the chewed mass, get it into the blood stream that is 98.6 degrees and highly oxygenated and that oil will oxidize.

sphagnum

@mostlylurking said in Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?:

just a heads up about the avocado oil; Ray Peat warned about the toxicity of avocados here: https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml
"Not all fruits, of course, are perfectly safe--avocados, for example, contain so much unsaturated fat that they can be carcinogenic and hepatotoxic."
from the references: In Vivo 1998 Nov-Dec;12(6):675-89. "The promotive tumorigenic effects of other high-fat diets (avocado, soybeans) were associated with high content of some polyunsaturated fatty acids (linoleic and alpha-linolenic)."
also: Ann Nutr Metab 1991;35(5):253-60. "Effect of dietary avocado oils on hepatic collagen metabolism. Wermam MJ, Mokady S, Neeman I Department of Food Engineering and Biotechnology, Technion - Israel Institute of Technology, Haifa. The effect of various avocado and soybean oils on collagen metabolism in the liver was studied in growing female rats for 8 weeks and in day-old chicks for 1 week. In comparison with rats fed either refined avocado oil, refined or unrefined soybean oils, rats fed unrefined avocado oil showed a significant decrease in total collagen solubility in the liver, while there were no changes in total collagen, protein and moisture content. Chicks fed unrefined avocado oil as compared to those fed refined avocado oil also showed a decrease in hepatic total soluble collagen while hepatic total collagen remained unaffected. Electron micrographs and light-microscope examinations of rats' liver revealed collagen accumulation in the periportal location. This is suggestive of the early stages of fibrosis."

Thank you for correcting that. I had originally only pointed out that those foods weren’t nut/seed derived, but when I went to proofread the whole post I added in about PUFA without making sure it fit the criteria for all the foods.

Whenever I would eat avocado I’d get cold-like symptoms. I originally chalked it up to food intolerance and avoided it thereafter, but it could have been the PUFA considering I had intuitively avoided other high PUFA foods since my teen years.

Butter Girl

@sphagnum said in Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?:

@Butter-Girl depending on how far you moved, there might be some trees close by. It wasn’t until I identified what a black walnut fruit looked like that I realized they’re all over around me, mostly on public land.

Yeah, I imagine an occasion single nut off the tree isn’t going to do much harm. I still wouldn’t make a habit of it, but I wouldn’t fret over it either.
Considering the work involved, most people wouldn’t bother getting to the point of overeating them straight off the tree.

I know that TerraSoul sells some nuts direct from refrigeration when you buy from their website. I used to get their Brazil nuts and keep them cold, eating one a day for selenium, after scraping the skin off *a seed/nut’s skin is where their phytic acid is concentrated, and that stuff will bind up important nutrients, including but not limited to calcium, magnesium, zinc, selenium, and potassium. Contrary to what you read online, soaking doesn’t always fix this, especially if the seed/nut isn’t viable to sprout (heat treated/irradiated/broken/deshelled in some cases)

I definitely second what LucH said in regards to using Vitamin E to reduce harmful effects.

Yeah, I use Georgi’s Vit. E.

yerrag

@Butter-Girl

I have a nuanced take on nuts and fruits such as avocados that contain PUFAs.

While they contain PUFAs, they also contain vitamin E. As a whole food, I think the destructive effects of PUFA are countered by the Vitamin E in them. On the other hand, I can hardly find Vitamin E in foods that have SFAs. Granted, coconut has some tocotrienols in them, which some may consider to be a beneficial kind of vitamin E but I'm not convinced of this.

So I would take nuts and such fruits when it is season, when they are available free in the backyards or cheap and affordable. If they're not healthful, I don't take them daily or throughout the year. At worst, their effects are at worst limited as it is not built into my daily lifestyle.

What matters more to me is what I eat daily and is part of my lifestyle of eating. I has gone cold turkey on PUFA for at least 4 years, and believe by my improved health after those 4 years to validate Ray's teachings on the toxicity of PUFAs. These days, I still use SFAs as my cooking oil, but can't help to eat chicken and pork, which contain PUFAs in their days. I can minimize PUFA intake from eating them by not eating the fat portions, but can't help eat some PUFAs from them in the sauce and drippings, and as part of the meat.

I now can afford to minimization rather than a total PUFA elimination diet. I use butter, ghee, refined coconut oil, and fully hydrogenated coconut oil (especially for deep frying , though I air fry but there is no contest comparing deep to air fry).

I'm happy enough we enjoy Coke and have no guilt eating sweets. I am a social beer drinker even though the lactic acid in beer is a no no. And I like kimchi and sauerkraut, but don't eat them regularly as much as I eat well-cooked green leaves. About avocado, they're in season one month in a year, the rest of the year I eat bananas, papaya, pineapple, watermelon , honeydew, mangoes etc.

I guess what I'm saying the good stuff I eat will overpower the bad I enjoy from time to time. For me, life is to be enjoyed, and enjoying a full life matters more. Not that I see this lifestyle as being in conflict with a predominantly healthy one.

Butter Girl

@yerrag said in Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?:

I now can afford to minimization rather than a total PUFA elimination diet. I use butter, ghee, refined coconut oil, and fully hydrogenated coconut oil (especially for deep frying , though I air fry but there is no contest comparing deep to air fry).

I do the same. I’ve been avoiding PUFA for a while. I use butter/ghee for frying, but I rarely fry or saute at all.

I also use a high quality, highly rated olive oil for things like a salad. I don’t use the ordinary olive oils sold in grocery stores due to the common practice of cutting cheaper olive oil with other questionable oils.
Even though I don’t cook with any PUFA oils, I have always wondered about nuts in their natural state though. That’s why I had posted the topic.

Joop3000

@Butter-Girl
For me, yes. If I don't chew them to mush completely, they go back out still looking like a nut or part of a nut.

jamezb46

Some of the "nuts" which are really seeds have some vitamin E, and selenium both of which are beneficial.

Some nuts are relativaly lower in PUFA such as macademia nuts, but none of them are particuarly high on SFA/PUFA ratio, which is what really counts.

You need about 400 mcg tocopherols/ 1 gram PUFA, perhaps some nuts that are higher in selenium, vitamin E, and lower in PUFA could be O.K so have in, say, chocolate or something. Brazil nuts might fit that description and they are high in selenium as well.

yerrag

@Butter-Girl said in Are Nuts In Their Natural State Used Differently By The Body Than Their Processed Oils?:

Even though I don’t cook with any PUFA oils, I have always wondered about nuts in their natural state though. That’s why I had posted the topic.

I wonder why squirrels eat these nuts all the time (or do they?). Would they live healthier and longer lives without these nuts? Or do their body can convert PUFA to SFA just like cows do?

But I'm glad I don't eat nuts often. And I don't eat peanut butter not almond butter often, even though I like the taste.

Still, they are far, far better eaten whole, as nuts or as butters, instead of being processed into cooking oils, where no vitamin E is present at all. And I believe the presence of vitamin E does a fair amount of countering the effects of PUFAs. Otherwise, prior to the use of seed oils for food, people would already be having problems of obesity and low metabolism in earlier times, in places where nuts are abundant.

Speaking of squirrels, do these nuts become abundant only in autumn? If so, maybe the PuFAs in them serve the purpose of slowing their metabolism in time for winter, when they hibernate?

Still, for me, I prefer eating some nuts, especially after they are soaked to a point where a bud comes out, to remove anti-nutrients that are toxins on our gut; than drinking milk substitutes and eating meat substitutes. I could be said to have a choice in choosing my poison, and the poison I chose is something I enjoy eating. And if it is indeed poison, I don't over-indulge in it.