How to buy the right red-light device
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@sunsunsun What improvements do you notice about it?
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@heyman I use it sometimes for muscle soreness , other inflammations etc and it knocks it out fast
in winter shining it on neck / thyroid for 3-5 min is decent replacement for daily intense sunlight
sometimes when working at desk I prop it on desk to the side so it indirectly shines in eyes, seem like it is good for eye strain prevention
at halloween it makes nice creepy light
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@sunsunsun What difference is it from an incandescent 250w bulb?
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@heyman it’s red
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@heyman said in How to buy the right red-light device:
@sunsunsun What difference is it from an incandescent 250w bulb?
Sunlight contains red light and a whole lot more.
The sunlight spectrum extends far into the infrared range and it is the infrared portion of the spectrum that produces heat. Incandescent light also contains portions of the infrared spectrum but it has much less blue light.
As far as I know, all LEDs contain a large amount of blue. The people who sell red LEDs cleverly neglect to show you the blue portion of the spectrum so you are left in the dark about the amount blue they emit.
Dr. Peat liked incandescent light. He liked the spectrum produced from running 130 volt incandescent bulbs in a 120 volt system. That is what influenced me to purchase this pool light in 2016. It is still buring brightly today.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004DJ5TMS?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_8
You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. 👀
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@DavidPS said in How to buy the right red-light device:
Dr. Peat liked incandescent light. He liked the spectrum produced from running 130 volt incandescent bulbs in a 120 volt system. That is what influenced me to purchase this pool light in 2016. It is still buring brightly today.
I was not certain if the 130v bulb would be throwing off enough heat to melt a plastic socket. So I got a unit similar to this one with a ceramic socket.
BAYCO SL-302B3 10-1/2-Inch Clamp Light
Porcelain Ceramic Socket -
@DavidPS Interesting, don't think 130 volt would work here in europe though.
When I asked ray about light he always recommended the incandescent lights. Don't know if it was his thing with keeping it low cost (keep it real yo) or disdain towards led lights. When I asked red light man he said incandescent light bulbs are very inefficient, producing mostly heat.
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@heyman said in How to buy the right red-light device:
Interesting, don't think 130 volt would work here in europe though.
I'm guessing they mean 130W bulbs. As in watts, not in voltage. The stronger incandescent bulbs have a nicer spectrum closer to daylight in comparison to the low wattage ones which tend to be very yellowish and lacking contrast. The picture above looks more like sunlight spectrum through window glass and not quite right for an incandescent spectrum as there would be much more "wasted" energy in the IR part beyond 800nm. Which makes incandescent uncomfortable at close range unless it's very evenly spread as it comprises the peak frequencies for heating up tissue water. Maybe the graph's curve is a due to a restricted spectrum range of the measuring equipment.
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@CrumblingCookie In this 1-minute clip Dr. Peat explains that running a 130 volt bulb in the standard 120 volt circuit ('standard' in the US) results in a weaker blue emision.
Ray Peat on best light bulbs to use, incandescent lights, red light.
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@DavidPS Thanks for your clarification. Vaguely remembering this one now.
I've never tried them side by side. Wondering whether the lower blue light emission of an underpowered 130 Volts bulb in a 120 Volts socket compared to a 120 Volts bulb in a 120 Volts socket is any near to using a weaker (less wattage, therefore "warmer" color spectrum) 120 Volts bulb. Have you ever compared and noticed the differences? -
@CrumblingCookie - I have not made the comparison but it is a good idea, Haidut started a thread about this back in 2013. I have not reread the thread; I have already made my purchase.
Red Light Experiment (120V Vs. 130V)You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. 👀
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@DavidPS Interesting, do you think its best with a red bulb or clear bulb?
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@DavidPS said in How to buy the right red-light device:
I have not reread the thread; I have already made my purchase.
Red Light Experiment (120V Vs. 130V)I resisted rereading this thread but I decided to read it again. It has some good information.
@heyman - I use a clear frosted light. I use it for hours at a time taking care not to shine it into my eyes. I think of it as my sunlight mimicking bulb. For fire safety, I use a porcelain ceramic socket.
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Since this thread has gained some traction, I thought I’d share what I ended up getting and my experience with it.
I went with a red-coated 250W Philips incandescent lightbulb, aka "the chicken lamp":
The setup takes a bit of care. This bulb draws a lot of power, and if you try to run it in a standard light fixture, you risk damaging the fixture and starting a fire, so you’ll need a ceramic fixture rated for 250W that can handle the heat.
So I bought this "reptile lamp holder" where I screw the Philips bulb in:
The cost is very cheap, 15€ the bulb + 25€ for the holder, = 40€ in total, in Amazon.
You can set this lamp anywhere by clamping the clip onto anything that can hold it, like the edge of a shelf, or a chair. It’s not the prettiest setup, but it’s flexible and gets the job done.
The vibe and atmosphere it creates is peak, incredibly red, feels very calming and cozy, and it makes a huge difference in the late night hours for my quality of sleep. When I step out of this room and get exposed to the normal "warm" LEDs in my home it feels like I'm being blasted with blue daylight by comparison.
When I’m not using it for direct exposure, I simply point the lamp at the ceiling to create a red ambience. although I'm thinking of replacing this with just a red-light LED bulb since it's a lot of wasted energy to use a 250W bulb only for lighting.
For actual light therapy, I place the lamp close to my body while working on my computer. The beam is strong and focused, so I’ll adjust the angle to target different areas of my body. It's very warm, and in winter I use it while shirtless, the warmth is so strong that it can be your only source of heat in the room.
There's something to be said about EMFs though. Since this lamp uses a two-prong plug, it isn’t grounded, which means it can emit high amounts of EMFs. I don't get headaches or anything but I do feel something off very slightly. So it's best to clamp an alligator cable onto the metal part of the lamp and then connect that cable to a grounded socket. Here's a reference: https://x.com/ze_rusty/status/1878041864307155275
Overall, it's a nice source of red light during the dark seasons of the year. I haven't really used it much during summer.
I'm curious to try more advanced red light therapy devices like the Chroma Ironforge, but they're very expensive devices, so I guess I'll continue to use my chicken lamp for now. These red light therapy devices are supposedly more effective compared to the chicken lamp when it comes to targeting the mitochondria, since their range in the light spectrum is more focused in near infrared light, while the chicken lamp emits mostly far infrared light, which essentially only warms up your body very deeply.
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@oliveoil said in How to buy the right red-light device:
Since this lamp uses a two-prong plug, it isn’t grounded
Don't know how it is in America, but in europe that's not correct.
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@heyman You're right, so to make a distinction:
- Non-grounded plugs in the EU only have two prongs.
- Grounded plugs in the EU have two prongs + a metal clip in the middle.
The chicken lamp is not grounded because it uses a type c plug with just two prongs.
So in order to avoid EMF emissions, you will need to either:
- find a chicken lamp socket with a grounding connection
- connect a grounded alligator clip onto the metal part of the lamp, which unfortunately will involve more cables.
Sadly, I wasn't able to find a 250w lamp socket that has a grounded plug anywhere online. Maybe there's a way to DIY a solution though.
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@oliveoil said in How to buy the right red-light device:
There's something to be said about EMFs though. Since this lamp uses a two-prong plug, it isn’t grounded, which means it can emit high amounts of EMFs. I don't get headaches or anything but I do feel something off very slightly. So it's best to clamp an alligator cable onto the metal part of the lamp and then connect that cable to a grounded socket. Here's a reference: https://x.com/ze_rusty/status/1878041864307155275
Do you feel something off, even using the alligator cable? I have the same Bayco clamp light that DavidPS linked above and this RubyLux near infrared bulb:
https://www.amazon.com/RubyLux-NIR-Near-Infrared-Grade/dp/B00N4JE9U6/ref=sr_1_6
and I get a headache from it. Based on my recommendation, my friend got the same set-up and he loves it so it doesn’t seem to be a product issue, but a me issue. Ray mentioned getting a headache from red light too so I’ve been trying to figure out why it causes that reaction, for some of us. I thought maybe it was due to the heat it emits and how uncomfortable I felt while using it—I go topless, targeting my spine specifically (I have an old spinal injury), and would sweat profusely—but even after I started consuming something cold during my sessions, I still get a headache. I would have given up on it if it weren’t for the pain relief it gives me.
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@Jennifer said in How to buy the right red-light device:
I thought maybe it was due to the heat it emits and how uncomfortable I felt while using it—I go topless, targeting my spine specifically (I have an old spinal injury), and would sweat profusely
With mine, I don't sweat. No heat at 30 cm / 1 ft.
From Red Light Man (small bulb)
620 ◦ 670 ◦ 760 ◦ 830 nm
Useful info
The Therapeutic Effects of Red and Near-Infrared Light (2017)
http://valtsus.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-therapeutic-effects-of-red-and-near.html
“Previous studies have shown that exposing cells to a particular wavelength of light, 670 nanometers, toward the red end of the visible spectrum, causes their energy-producing mitochondria to boost production of adenosine triphosphate, which powers the cells.” (Science 2017)
Near-infrared penetrates the tissue better than red light, so it’s more commonly used for treating body parts that are under the skin (brain, glands, joints, muscles). Visible red light is more commonly used in the treatment of wounds or skin diseases.
The right dose
Low-to-moderate doses of light are often described as stimulating and high doses as inhibitory, because some markers that can be increased by low doses of light, have been shown to decrease with excessive light doses. The exact mechanism of biphasic dose-response is not known, but it might be related to excessive formation of reactive oxygen species (ROS). -
Which wavelength?
*) Going by the studies on wavelength effectiveness (T. Karu et al.) (1), our cells absorb and use 4 "peaks" of light better than the others: 620 nm, 670 nm, 760 nm and 830 nm, +/- 15 nm. Those are the wavelengths you should try to get.- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16144476
Reference: https://theskincareedit.com/2018/05/18/red-light-therapy-at-home
*) 830-840nm is for deep therapy (like pancreas and thyroid gland)
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/red-light-therapy-lllt-cures-hypothyroid.6815/
650 is for surface skin problems
=> Wavelength 670nm is the nearest.*) Useful info
Between 0.1J/cm² to 6J/cm² is optimal for most tissues.
What dose should I aim for?
Most review articles and educational material tends to claim a dose in the range of 0.1J/cm² to 6J/cm² is optimal for cells, with less doing nothing and much more cancelling out the benefits a (too long time brings Nitric Oxide).
Distance of the light source is crucially important here, as it determines the light power density hitting the skin. For example, using the Red Light Device at 25cm instead of 10cm would increase the application time required but cover a larger area of skin. There’s nothing wrong with using it from further away, just be sure to compensate by increasing application time.*) Way to calculate
Summary for formula: Dose = Power Density x Time in sec. x 0.001
Between 0.1J/cm² to 6J/cm² is optimal for most tissues.Let’s take an example:
Suppose the power density between 50 and 100 W/cm2
Let’s say 85 W/cm2 at 15 cm distance.
=> Power Density x Time = Dose
+/ 85 W/cm2 x 100 Sec. = 8500 x 0.001 = 8.5 J/cm2 => Too high.
85 W/cm2 x 60 Sec. = 5100 x 0.001 = 5.1 J/cm2 => OK.
=> Between +/ 60 and 90’’ at 15 cm.*) Abbreviations
Power Density (irradiance) in mW/cm² (milliwatts per centimeter squared)
Time in s (seconds)
Dose in J/cm² (Joules per centimeter squared)*) My choice: Red Light man (RLM)
For Red/IR Combo Mini: 620 - 670 - 760 - 830 nm wavelength.
NB: Between 20 and 200 W/cm2 according to the distance, for RLM.
200 W/cm2 at 5 cm distance
100 W/cm2 at 10 cm distance
50 W/cm2 at 30 cm distance
25 W/cm2 at 55 cm distance
10 W/cm2 at 90 cm distance*) Another example
- Let’s suppose the power 50 W/cm2 at 30 cm distance. Which time?
50 W/cm2 x 120 sec. = 6000 x 0.001 = 6 J/cm2 => OK
50 W/cm2 x 60 sec. = 3000 x 0.001 = 3 J/cm2 => OK
NB: Remember: between 0.1J/cm² to 6J/cm² is optimal for most tissues. The distance impacts the radiance (the extent of the irradiated surface).
Conclusion: 60 to 120 seconds at 30 cm distance. No longer.
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16144476
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Thank you for the thorough explanation, @LucH. It’s very helpful. I sit at a distance of roughly 61 cm for 10 minutes and usually feel the headache starting within 5 minutes so I’ll try adjusting the distance and time, based on the information you gave me. Thanks again.
