Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List
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@Peatful Bone loss and excess catabolism can all be explained by much rapid and sustained weight loss.... if you lose more weight and your weight loss doesn't plateau you will lose more muscle. In interventional animal studies, where they simply weren't studying correlations and observations, GLP 1 agonists have been shown to be anti-catabolic to both bones and muscles.
I also saw another study that said the opposite about GLP 1 agonists effect on mental health.
But fair enough for sharing these studies. I personally have not experienced this, and have got even more stronger in the gym on semaglutide, but these are fair talking points.
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How do you approach cabergoline - dosage, timing, frequency etc.?
What's your take on cabergoline vs pramipexol?
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@alfredoolivas They absolutely do in supraphysiological doses. Try perusing some bodybuilder forums. I wouldn't recommend you try high t3 though as it will send your appetite through the roof.
Yes, yes 3500cal in a pound of fat, assuming that you burn it exclusively. Is ozempic known to preserve lean mass and bone density compared to a solid exercise and diet plan alone?
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@Metabolist They don't, studies have shown healthy men taking testosterone, don't get any change in metabolic rate, and thyroid for barely to change the metabolic rate and weight loss. On that topic, thyroid has shown to be very catabolic in humans but people love to keep quiet about that one here.
I have tried different brands of thyroid, taken up to 300mcg a day, and have not lost weight. Same goes for testosterone. I am on bodybuilder forums, and thyroid is only useful when yourbody stops burning fat during a calorie deficit, and testosterone isn't even talked about for a fat loss agent, even though it has fat loss related benefits like muscle preservation.
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@anib 0.25mg twice a week.
I haven't got a good answer. Pramixepole seems to have some opposite effects than the ergot derivatives. Pramixepole encourages fat gain for example, whereas cabergoline and bromocriptine promote it, pramixepole is more asssociated with compulsive dissorders etc, I just don't trust Pramixepole, it is a lot stronger than cabergoline, I read it is stronger than dopamine by 100%+, whereas cabergoline is around 70% as strong as dopamine. Seems very artificial. Just my intuition really, no good reason.
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@alfredoolivas said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
Thyroid (T3/T4
@alfredoolivas What does your thyroid dosing look like? How much T3/T4 a day? how many times a day and do you recommend any specific brand?
Thanks for the post
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@alfredoolivas Interesting list - thanks, but with all the respect, it's not (holistic) Peating, it's just biohacking at best...
"The only supplements that are very safe to take orally are aspirin, cascara, some kinds of thyroid, small amounts of penicillin (30 mg), cyproheptadine (one-half to one milligram), and progesterone." ~Ray Peat, PhD
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@metabolicmilk 100-120mcgs of T3, split into 16 mcg doses every hour and a half. My favourite is Tironene - I do really well on it, it's cheap and IdeaLabs ships the same day you order, they have DHL express delivery, meaning it can get delivered to Europe in less than 2 days, and it passes customs every time, very very quickly. A zero-stress expereience with IdeaLabs and their product, I love it.
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@Kvirion Absolutely, not for everyone.
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@alfredoolivas Testosterone is for favorable nutrient partitioning and lean mass preservation as you said. T3 absolutely will ramp up fat loss, beyond just the maintenance of the normal metabolic rate in a deficit, as long as you don't out eat the metabolic boost. I've seen it work first hand in others. Done right, it's a gradual thing but so is any lasting weight loss. Muscle loss isn't really a concern with proper diet and training so long as you aren't seriously overdosing.
If you took 300mcg for a few days without your heart beating out of your chest and without severe jitters then you either have really weak product or some sort of thyroid hormone resistance. 300mcg is reckless and advise anyone reading this not to try it.
And for the record, there were multiple reports on the old RPF that tironene is unstable or outright bunk. Since you're taking it you could have some blood work drawn to verify if you're curious. At 100mcg a day your total T3 level should be more than double the top of the range.
Anyway, good luck with your weight loss goals and your biohacking experiments.
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@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
. T3 absolutely will ramp up fat loss, beyond just the maintenance of the normal metabolic rate in a deficit, as long as you don't out eat the metabolic boost. I've seen it work first hand in others. Done right, it's a gradual thing but so is any lasting weight loss. Muscle loss isn't really a concern with proper diet and training so long as you aren't seriously overdosing.
Obviously, but it won't help with controlling appetite which is what I struggle with. And it it will help, but it won't be the main factor that is making you lose weight.
@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
. Muscle loss isn't really a concern with proper diet and training so long as you aren't seriously overdosing.
So you acknowledge there is nuance, with studies that show a weight loss drug causes muscle loss, but when it comes to Ozempic, that same logic goes out the window.
"Subjects treated with T3, 150 µg/day, showed a rise in oxygen uptake and the catabolism of fat and protein. Approximately 75% of the extra oxygen consumed could be accounted for by catabolism of fat. Yet breakdown of lean body mass produced nearly 80% of the weight loss."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523333264#:~:text=Subjects treated with T3,80%25 of the weight loss.@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
.If you took 300mcg for a few days without your heart beating out of your chest and without severe jitters then you either have really weak product or some sort of thyroid hormone resistance. 300mcg is reckless and advise anyone reading this not to try it.
Not in my experience, and clinically this has not been shown.
"On an outpatient basis, 12 grossly obese patients were treated in a double-blind, randomized trial with either 225 µg triiodothyronine or with identically appearing placebo tablets for 1 month followed by a 2nd month of the opposite therapy. During the period on T3, there was an average rise of six beats/min in heart rate and a significant loss of weight. "
"Consistent effects of T(3) or T(4) on weight loss, protein breakdown, metabolic rate, and heart rate could not be established. In euthyroid cardiac patients, T(3) decreased TSH and free T(4) levels, without consistent effects of T(3) or T(4) on heart rate, cardiac output, or systemic vascular resistance. "
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19737920/
"Results: No change in sympathetic and metabolic BAT activity, energy expenditure, or BMI was seen during T3 treatment despite the expected changes in thyroid hormone plasma concentrations."
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/jpem-2014-0337/html?lang=en&srsltid=AfmBOorTshJkgAshNN78o3j1SrDFuHopj7gSU5W3tzAsEl7EhJDKsjxQ -
@alfredoolivas "Liraglutide exerted anti-catabolic activity by significantly decreasing the activities of metalloproteinases and aggrecanases"
"Liraglutide treatment decreases the release and gene expression of OA inflammatory and catabolic markers and stimulates anabolic markers gene expression"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35091584/"Liraglutide, a glucagon-like peptide-1 receptor agonist, inhibits bone loss in an animal model of osteoporosis with or without diabetes."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38868747/
"Liraglutide increases bone formation and inhibits bone resorption in rats with glucocorticoid-induced osteoporosis"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30955181/ -
@alfredoolivas So you lack the willpower and discipline to overcome your hunger during a cut and therefore need to take a novel big pharma drug? Got it.
No matter how much or by what means you boost your metabolism, you're going to lose muscle mass if your metabolic rate exceeds the rate at which your body is able to mobilize stored lipids. Same goes for simple calorie restriction. I don't know if this is the cause of the reported muscle loss on ozempic. It could be something else causing it. All I know is that the people I've seen that have lost weight on ozempic don't look quite right.
You mean your experience with a weak or fake product? Try it again with cynomel if you dare. One study using metabolically-deranged mega fatties does not concretely prove your point. Do you not believe in thyrotoxicosis? What about thyroid storm? Mere superstition from overly cautious endocrinologists, right? I've known people who have experienced thyrotoxicosis and they all found it quite scary. Perhaps you should meet with an endocrinologist yourself if you believe you're truly hypothyroid. That way you could have labs done and ensure you get genuine hormones.
Before singing the praises of semaglutide, don't you think you ought to achieve your goal weight first and maintain it a good while after discontinuing?
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@alfredoolivas you are clearly heavily indoctrinated into the scientism of the medical industry, you have a lot of unlearning to do if you want to engage with peats work in any meaningful way. In vivo and the gay science should be mandatory reading for this forum lol
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hi learnedhelplessness
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@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
@alfredoolivas So you lack the willpower and discipline to overcome your hunger during a cut and therefore need to take a novel big pharma drug? Got it.
Yeah? I am not trying to be stressed during my weight loss and during the time I try to maintain my weight loss?
The result is - I look great - feel great - and have no side effects. All for 45 euros a month. But maybe I should buy heavy metal laden DNP...
@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
You mean your experience with a weak or fake product? Try it again with cynomel if you dare. One study using metabolically-deranged mega fatties does not concretely
I gave you 2 studies and a meta-analysis, that share my experience?
I respond really well to thyroid, I get very good effects from thyroid such as dopmanigeric effects and improved energy. Hence why it is in S tier.
I am not taking in fake products or a "non responder" to thyroid, I just don't get the increase in heart beat.... which is pretty normal according to the 2 studies and the meta-analysis I showed you.
@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
Try it again with cynomel if you dare.
I have, and received the same results.... let me guess... the cynomel got damaged on the way to europe?
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@samson said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:
@alfredoolivas you are clearly heavily indoctrinated into the scientism of the medical industry,
Because I hold a single controversial opinion about a substance, I am indoctrinated?
In vivo and the gay science should be mandatory reading for this forum lol
So people should have to read selectively chosen science, to be a part of this forum, and anyone that goes against the grain a single time is medically indoctrinated?
Instead of continuing our conversation about the interesting selection of studies you gave me, you come out with this authoritarian comment
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"Heart rate decreased significantly after T3 infusion (63, 60–66 vs. 69, 60–76 beats per minute"
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/93/4/1351/2826632"Triiodothyronine in patients with advanced heart failure. An intravenous bolus dose of triiodothyronine, with or without a 6- to 12-hour infusion (cumulative dose 0. 1 5 to 2.7 microg/kg...There was no significant change in heart rate or metabolic rate and there was minimal increase in core temperature"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9485134/"Cardiac function as measured by LVEF, end-diastolic and end-systolic volumes and cardiac output did not change during T3-treatment and neither did the neurohormonal profile. There were no side-effects in terms of cardiac arrhythmias and no change in resting heart rate."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.12648 -
@alfredoolivas in my experience if thyroid is not curbing appetite (it should) then it's not working as well as it could. I think estrogen can be one of the great interferers and it's worth experimenting with the various estrogen antagonists or getting the type of tests done that idealabs offer, which might help shed light on things
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@Hando-Jin thanks for sharing.
Thyroid doesn’t stimulate appetite for me and it might even lower appetite for me, if anything. But not significantly. I already am taking 50mg of exemestane a day, I like it.
Thyroid increases GLP-1, which is why maybe it lowers appetite.
