Healthfully acquiring Vitamin A in the diet, experiences?
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Hello all,
This isn't even meant to be an inflammatory troll post relating to vitA toxicity or anything like that.
I have keratosis pilaris on my upper arms, ever since childhood. Somewhat more recently dealing with dandruff issues.
Everything that I am reading here: https://raypeatexplained.com/ray-peat-on-vitamin-a/ suggests that increasing vitamin A intake can be helpful to constrain the epithelial/protein overproduction.
Simply what are peaty ways to increase vitamin A intake?
Would also be interested to hear any experiences, positive or negative.
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Liver. That's really the best source. And of course full fat dairy, although the reduced fat milk at least in the U.S is required to have Vitamin A Palmitate added.
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I have noticed for the past couple years that whenever I eat grass fed beef liver I tend to get constipated. Grass fed specifically, the conventional beef liver I get I have no issues with. I notice more profound prometabolic effects from the grass fed liver, which I am assuming is from the increased Vitamin A content. I was wondering if you have any tips? Should I try eating it with more fat?
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As far as experiences is concerned, I would say I feel an increase in metabolism, time perception, and overall energy. I also tend to sleep better the following days.
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@Meeka said in Healthfully acquiring Vitamin A in the diet, experiences?:
I have noticed for the past couple years that whenever I eat grass fed beef liver I tend to get constipated. Grass fed specifically, the conventional beef liver I get I have no issues with. I notice more profound prometabolic effects from the grass fed liver, which I am assuming is from the increased Vitamin A content. I was wondering if you have any tips? Should I try eating it with more fat?
Going through my notes, here is a quote that may be useful to you. Someone asked Ray about negative effects after taking large doses of vitamin A. I realize there are many factors, but maybe it will help:
"For about a month, I took 30-40k IUs daily vitamin a. Might that account for some eye troubles and very dry skin? I read a chinese paper that taurine and zinc help hypervitaminosis a, do you know of anything else, and would transthyretin saturation by A interfere with supplemental t4? As with all of us, i appreciate your dedication and humanity ineffably."
Ray:
"Vitamin A oxidizes easily and an excess can create symptoms of a deficiency, so vitamin E is the most important thing for correcting it; excess vitamin A, like PUFA, interferes with thyroid hormone transport, so it’s important to balance the two."Original source: https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/ray-peat-email-advice-depository.1035/post-125018
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I appreciate it. I will try taking some vitamin E more regularly.
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Thanks all for writing. I think I will try to get more beef liver in the diet as recommended... I have frankly been avoiding it for many years simply because, at least in the past (Ray mentions that lower thyroid can lead to a lower tolerance for vitamin A), I get sick of eating it very quickly, and I tend to dislike freezing my food if I can help it due to the alleged (by Aajonus, when I read him...) effects on vitamin integrity. Freezing it though becomes the only way in that case that I can avoid throwing it out, besides force-feeding liver, which does not seem in the realm of "perceive, think act".
But as I've written, maybe lower thyoid level had something to do with that. I haven't experimented very much with liver since I began Peating (been making do with oysters and eggs for vitA), so maybe it's high time that I try it again.
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@Rah1woot
Like you, I don't like the taste of liver and tire of it quickly. But, it does tend to make me feel good, so I treat it like a medicine, and attempt to flavor it best I can and make it as painless as I can. I've started to eat two, 2oz servings a week, instead of one 4oz serving. It's easier to consume that way. -
@Rah1woot Idealabs Retinil or Estroban maxxing or chicken/beef liver
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@Meeka said in Healthfully acquiring Vitamin A in the diet, experiences?:
I will try taking some vitamin E more regularly.
OK but the right dose. 20--25 mg if every day.
I take liver (2x hen liver, rather than beef liver, it tastes better when I eat them lightly roasted, with onion, coconut oil and spiced water 240 ml.
I take 400 UI advanced gamma toco 2x/wk; 3x when detox.Detailed explanation in a former post (on my forum)
Vit E 2 x wk: Why?
Now I rather take twice a week Vit E 400 UI, depending on my status (low-grade inflammation or not).
Why?- We need 20-25 UI per day, according to Chris Masterjohn, in the flower of age (let’s say up to 45 years old).
- Half-life of Vit E is rather short (3-4 hours in the blood, to 20 hours in tissue) but it could accumulate in liver. We are going to accumulate if we take 400 UI every day.
High dose Vit K can interfere with Vit E
Excess tocopherols antagonizes Vit K
They are all fat-soluble vitamins and can compete with each other for absorption into the micelle. Vitamins A and E are antagonists of vitamin K because they interfere with its absorption and metabolism.
Taking a high dose Vit K2 requires transporters that are in limited amount for transport in circulating lipoproteins for subsequent uptake by tissues.
How much is too much is not clearly defined.
The reduction in assimilation appears to be partly related to the phenomenon that Vitamin E and K share similar transporters/metabolizing enzymes. When high dose Vitamin E is given it may block the transporters/enzymes that are needed to integrate Vitamin K into the appropriate tissues. So similar to Aspirin, we should consider supplementing Vitamin K when trying high dose Vitamin E. Otherwise we may risk Vitamin K deficiency which can cause downstream problems.
Moreover excess Vit E, K and Q10 leaves quinones but our liver has a limited capacity to deal with.
I never take Vit A supplement at the same time as the other lipovitamins. Nor vit D with K at the same meal since we need a lot of fat to absorb Vit K (35 gr lipid is optimal).
Sources and references- Kinetic, Bioavailability, and Metabolism Study of RRR-α-Tocopherol in Healthy Adults J Nutr. 2012
Vitamin E may be stored and remain in your body for days, weeks, or even months after you ingest it.
Alpha-tocopherols are preferably stored in the liver and has a double life-time compared to other isomers. The Kinetic, bioavailability, and metabolism study of RRR-α-tocopherol in healthy adults suggests lower intake requirements than previous estimates. The model estimated residence time and half-life of the slowest turning-over compartment of α-tocopherol (adipose tissue) at 499 ± 702 d and 184 ± 48 d, respectively.
https://doi.org/10.3945/jn.112.166462 - Effect of vitamin E supplementation on vitamin K status in adults with normal coagulation status.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15213041
=> High doses of vitamin E may antagonize vitamin K. - Haemorrhagic toxicity of a large dose of alpha-, beta-, gamma- and delta-tocopherols, ubiquinone, beta-carotene, retinol acetate and L-ascorbic acid in the rat.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7867999
=> These results suggest that the four naturally occurring tocopherols have a tendency to cause haemorrhage in the order of alpha > beta > gamma > delta, and ubiquinone Q-10 and beta-carotene also have relatively strong and weak haemorrhagic effects, respectively, with regard to prothrombin and partial thromboplastin time indices. - Interaction of vitamins E and K: effect of high dietary vitamin E on phylloquinone activity in chicks.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9285253
=> The inhibiting effect of high dietary vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) on pro-coagulant factors could be prevented by increasing dietary phylloquinone (Vit K1) supplementation. Increased phylloquinone levels in the diet did not significantly influence alpha-tocopherol concentrations in plasma and liver, but coagulopathy caused by high vitamin E intake could be reversed. - Vitamin E decreases extra-hepatic menaquinone-4 concentrations in rats fed menadione (K3) or phylloquinone (K1)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22707266
Vitamin K1 = phylloquinone, K2 = menaquinone, K3 = menadione, and menaquinone-4 (also known as K2 MK4)
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Thank you for the information. My current plan was to take 400IU a week. Might increase it to twice a week
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Ray has indeed mentioned vitamin A potentially being antagonistic, but liver was the only thing to raise my temps to 98.6 F for a day or it. It would happen without fail every time I ate it, and overtime my temps held at 98.6 F all week as I was consistent with the liver.
You don't need to jump into the deep end. You can start with smaller quantities and increase overtime
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I've been consuming some beef liver over the past few days as recommended and have come back to write a bit of "experiment logs".
Did not observe any change in KP on arms, but that was expected. Maybe I can have better results to look forward to if I keep up with this on the level of months.
Consuming liver does seem to be prometabolic for me. After consuming liver, I've had temps as measured in the ear going up to 37.4C == 99.32F. My usual body temperature is around 37C == 98.6F, or lower (36.5C == 97.7F) when I skip eating or have a suboptimal diet for a period. It seems to make me hungrier.
I seem to be a bit more productive and "stable" in work, which I might associate with the effects on steroid synthesis (progesterone, pregnenolone, downstream on androgens). I can (mentally) exert myself somewhat more without it becoming a downer on the rest of the day. I also feel myself feeling more invested in my work and doing experiments, as opposed to just coasting.
Dandruff still kind of present (production from before liver?), but I haven't had any "bad episodes" in these past days.
Vision seems mildly sharper and eyes are generally less fatigued, but I haven't measured it formally.
Will try and remember to write again when I have anything else of interest to say.
Edit: Seems to have helped a lot with post-ejaculation fatigue, which is something that I've experienced for years and years. Great stuff!
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@Rah1woot Does anyone have a good read on how often beef liver should be eaten to control dandruff?
I have not had any dandruff in the days after consuming beef liver. But it does come back nearing the end of the week after a number of days without it. Is that a sign to increase the intake, or maybe that would cause toxicity problems?
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@Rah1woot said in Healthfully acquiring Vitamin A in the diet, experiences?:
Does anyone have a good read on how often beef liver should be eaten to control dandruff?
retinol help the immune system but doesn't prevent dandruff to come back after a few days.
Anti-dandruff shampoos typically contain specific ingredients (ketoconazole, selenium sulfide, salicylic acid, zinc pyrithione) that help fight dandruff and soothe the scalp.
If you have dandruff patches, you need to use a special comb, purchased from a hairdressing retailer.
I can show a photo i desired. -
I don't know if this has been discussed before, I've just returned to this forum after a long break. But is there a chance ol Charlie boy and his unmerry band of low toxin warriors have simply experienced negative effects from vitamin A because, as Ray pointed out many years ago, if you are low thyroid, too much vitamin A will suppress metabolism even further?
Maybe all along they were just simply low thyroid, and they've put all the blame on vitamin A?
There's a resistance among some 'Peaters' to acknowledge a plain and somewhat boring truth: they are hypothyroid. It's easier and sexier to go in search of some magic pill or some magically toxic substance that is the single cause of all one's woes.
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@jd_au I tend to identify that hypothyroidism in/around the forums with people that are very melodramatic. They often latch onto various forms of obscurantist mysticism babble when this is exactly the mindset that Ray fought against through most of his work, which was materialistically informed.
