getting super lean sickkunt
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@alfredoolivas @Zachs @eduardo-crispino
I really don't think this is that complicated.
OP wants to get "super lean" for the summer. Whenever you lose bodyfat, the main concern is losing muscle mass.
There is no evidence (I posted 4 studies to the contrary which have still to be responded to) that eating a sugar only diet will preserve muscle mass across any time frame that will cause meaningful fat loss. The sugar diet is not DNP. You will not lose 10 pounds of fat in 1 week, which is the OP's goal. It would probably take at least 4-6 weeks.
I tried to give a blueprint in my first reply to this thread that makes sense given everything that I know from common sense, experience, and scientific evidence. That includes not crashing protein too low.
The first picture I posted (actually the only picture) is from before I started Peating. I was doing high intensity stair master 4-5x/week (sometimes 3x) for a couple months, and of course lifting weights and doing calisthenics. High protein diet from animal sources, adequate carbs, no added fats. I used it to show that an idiot (I was mostly ignorant of bioenergetics back then) can get a nice physique by sticking to the basics - plenty of cardio, resistance training, high protein (0.7-0.8 g/lb of lean mass), even if you don't balance calcium to phosphorus, minimize PUFA, optimize thyroid, etc.
I even gave some tips for how to have "enhanced" fat loss - with clen, t2, t3, ECA stack. Each of those is known to work, and there are studies proving each of them works and does not significantly reduce muscle when doing resistance training.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23686786/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12032741/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31887249/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26707345/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0303720717300928?via%3Dihub
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You refuse to acknowledge that it was not the lack of protein that made you sick, it was the lack of animal nutrition. If it was just protein, why didnt you stay vegan and just add more protein?
reading comprehension is not great in this thread because my advice keeps getting misconstrued. I never advocated for low or no anything long term. I myself ate 70-90g protein a day which is more than adequate for someone my size, eating an abundance of carbs and not weight training. The only thing i restricted was dietary fat, but i had massive amounts of body fat so i was perfectly fine for that time period. Even the sugar diet/fast whatever calls for periods of normal eating whenever you like.
This is a very rational, safe and simple way of losing bodyfat fast without depriving yourself of anything.
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I dont know why we are arguing then. You posted your advice showing you can get results with a drug + diet + cardio stack.
I posted my advice showing you can get results from a high carb + zero fat + stress free stack.
You have no right to question my authenticity on how fast i lost fat, why would i lie? I was deliberately experimenting on myself to see the outcome and i was a surprised as anyone by the results. And the picture alone is enough proof to show my muscles didnt waste away.
You assertion that 10lbs of fat may take 4-6 weeks is ridiculous, i literally posted proof on myself that that is false. There are tons of other people right now on the internet doing a similar diet and dropping fat rapidly.
I have nothing to say about your studies because im not even advocating for a protein restricted diet, 70-90g of protein day is not restricting when there is an abundance of carbs.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10385755/#:~:text=4.,nitrogen balance'%20%5B27%5D.
Heres a study that shows nitrogen balanced is achieved by .8g/kg in male vegans. It does not take much protein in the average person. Bodybuilding is different and im not advocating for that either.
I feel that my advice is getting misconstrued so here it is laid out simply, this is what I recommend to lose fat fast while maintaining muscle mass and elevating metabolism.
Ad libitum carbohydrates from any source, minimum 500g a day.
Small amounts of very lean protein sources and fat free dairy, does not need to be daily but at least 3x a week.
ZERO dietary fat except for what’s naturally occuring in these foods. (Cronometer may say around 10g/day) for up to one month, refeed days of fat if necessary (up to one month, not necessary as long as you have fat to lose).
Supplements suggested but not required, magnesium, b complex, fat soluble D+k2mk4+E topically or orally.
Thats it. This diet will clear pufa stores in the body, raise metabolism, clear metabolic dysfunction, reduce body fat significantly and give youthful energy.
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@Zachs said in getting super lean sickkunt:
You refuse to acknowledge that it was not the lack of protein that made you sick, it was the lack of animal nutrition. If it was just protein, why didnt you stay vegan and just add more protein?
reading comprehension is not great in this thread because my advice keeps getting misconstrued. I never advocated for low or no anything long term. I myself ate 70-90g protein a day which is more than adequate for someone my size, eating an abundance of carbs and not weight training. The only thing i restricted was dietary fat, but i had massive amounts of body fat so i was perfectly fine for that time period. Even the sugar diet/fast whatever calls for periods of normal eating whenever you like.
This is a very rational, safe and simple way of losing bodyfat fast without depriving yourself of anything.
Because all but fruit had me doubled over in pain, especially protein-rich plants. In prior years, when my diet was 100% WFPB and it averaged upwards of 90 g of protein I was healthy, and it’s when my diet still contained animal protein that I first fell ill so while I respect that you disagree, I’m certain the cause was my underlying thyroid disorder triggered by the stress of climbing in extreme conditions, and insufficient protein exacerbating my catabolic state. Thyroid disease runs in my family and my mum died due to complications of it so…
I never claimed that you advocated for low or no anything long-term, just challenged the idea that your protocol isn’t a restriction diet when it calls for restricting. It allows for refeeding, but a person wouldn’t need to refeed if they weren’t restricting to begin with. Regardless, like I said, I don’t doubt your experience so it seems to me that the diet works well for you. Previously, you said that you consumed 60–70 g of protein, but it was actually 70–90 g? If so, that makes more sense to me. I wondered how you were only getting 10–20 g more protein than me when your diet contained animal protein and I averaged 1,000 calories less than you.
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Ok that makes a bit more sense. Yes extreme endurance is always detrimental to health and im sure the amount of plants you ate did not help your thyroid.
While i think veganism is a an anti human agenda, i also think that for it to be optimal (as optimal as a deficient diet can be) there needs to be an abundance of easily digestible carbohydrates. I think most vegans do themselves an even bigger disservice by eating way too much fibrous foods and hard to digest foods.
My days fluctuated in protein, certainly there were plenty of days in the lower range maybe even dipping into 50g protein if most of the day was rice and fruit, but i definitely had higher days eating chicken breast, tenderloin, egg whites and fat free dairy, mainly yogurt and drinking milk.
While i understand that saying the diet in not a restriction diet and at the same time saying restricting dietary fat is crucial sounds like an oxymoron, it really isnt. people that are fat need to concern themselves far less about protein, fats and even nutrients because they are wearing an excess of everything on their body. So in that sense, while their dietary fat is being restricted, they are liberating their fat stores freely and nutrition is still abundant. As long as carbohydrate consumption is high, it cant be a restriction diet as they are getting everything they need. Hopefully that makes sense, its arguing semantics and wordplay really.
The real key here is that it is different to any other fat loss diet in that way. There has never been a fat loss diet promoted that doesnt restrict calories. Carnivore/keto usually talk about not needing to restrict calories but i have not seen many actually able to get lean on those diets withour further restricting and usually they stall with a good amount of fat to go. Those diets also physically change peoples microbiomes and metabolisms and dont allow for refeeds with carbs without disastrous effect.
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thanks for the passionate responses, everyone! You're all very beautiful girls, so no need to get your panties in a bunch... firstly this whole "sugar diet" shit is totally retarded and I'm not doing that. you haven't found a new paradigm jfc...
as for protein requirements, its probably true you don't need much to maintain. ray said like 100g for a 5k cal diet, which seems adequate.
lets remember to keep things reasonable. Its pretty silly and neuroic, and clearly not healthy to sugar fast. would peat ever recommend such a thing? the answer is no. not that he's the end all be all but cmon guys
BTW I maintain a pretty lean fizeek already, my problem was never maintaining a healthy body fat, it was getting shredded quick with minimal effort while eating reasonably. posting so i can be included lolz
I got here eating a standard 'peaty' HFLC 4000 cal diet that I enjoy very much, while still having plenty of pastries and pizza and pork and other non kosher stuff socially (along with plenty of liquor and a little beer) also doing literally 0 cardio other than walking to places I wanted to be (I live in NYC so its pretty easy to walk everywhere)
FGF21 already has some questionable bone density issues so 'sugar fasting' until dinner is as far as ill go, I've tried going pure sugar (juices, honey, etc) for a day and it sucked really bad, even with a really solid amount of nutrients around that fast. there are people who maintain sub 10% bf without doing all that shit
rn the plan is just normal cal restriction while keeping fats and carbs mostly separate and seeing how far that can get me, thinking ill include a 10k step requirement, that seems reasonable. when that stalls, maybe il do a cycle of ECA or sugar fast or whatever other stupid bullshit u guys recommend me to do hahaha, or maybe just get a girl and forget about this whole lean mean machine business to begin with...
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Ray Peat was the one who postulated that a zero fat diet would clear tissues of pufa and correct metabolic derangement. He went on to show that in metabolic ward scenario the body will create its own fatty acids to substitute.
Haidut was the one that brought forth evidence that pufa clearance could be achieved in 30 days with strict fat adherence.
Walter Kempner brought this diet to the mainstream, curing diabetes, metabolic derangement, obesity, kidney failure, hypertension and more. Others before him were curing diabetes and obesity with pure sugar.
Its amazing that such close minded people can find their way to Ray Peats work in the first place.
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@Zachs thanks for the babies first ray peat ideas summary. youre talking about chimps being pufa depleted in a month on a zero fat diet? yeah man I'm not a lab animal I'm an human being who likes to enjoy my life.
Where does Ray recommend a zero-fat diet? Where does Ray even suggest it might be responsible in a health context to do something like that for a short period of time? nowhere. not even georgi, who recommends more drastic things at times, ever recommended something like that.
The idea was always to simply limit fat intake to reduce PUFA accumulation with age. not cut out entire macros.
The way you're responding and interacting with this thread is NOT playful or full of joie de vivre... get real bro! Life is play! Eating 4000 calories of sugar for most of your life sounds awful. When I eat reasonably, i have no urge to binge like how you talk about...
he always talked about a gentle, traditional, reasonable diet for longevity and health, not these bombastic, trendy health spectacles.
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Looks like u got the basics mostly figured out. But clen or ECA is definitely not BS in the sense that it works. If you want I can send you the legendary “Bodyopus” of Dan Douchaine. It’s actually amazing how many parallels there are in it to RP type ideas such as that AAS mostly work through GR antagonism. Plenty of anti peat stuff too but …
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46 ya bro pm me! mostly was just being tongue in cheek about "bullshit", that being anything outside of what would be considered responsible for my health. would love some good bioenergetic resources on AAS or getting shredded if you have, bc most gym bro characters (even and especially the educated ones) follow traditional medical dogma, so it's hard to really tell what is healthy or what risks are associated with what compounds in reality thru a metabolic lens.
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@jamezb46 can you send it to me too please
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@samson he doesnt mean added sugar,
fruits, honey, candies, potato much more fun than any fat source.
You dont sound playfull or joie de vivre either.
"Reasonable" doesn't mean better, or good, or optimal
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@jamezb46 said in getting super lean sickkunt:
@Zachs Where is the proof of any of that? Show me the bodybuilder who cut on 50 grams of protein per day and kept all his muscle. Where is the evidence that adding creatine to a 50g protein diet preserves muscle? Recent study showed creatine doesn't do much for muscle gain, as expected.
Why would your advice be something that is completely experimental? Experimental is fine for an experiment, not for someone who is looking to retain muscle.
I'm sorry but the sugar diet (low protein low fat high carb) is a fad. There is no evidence that it works for preserving muscle mass. Even the most radical followers of this fad suggest eating a high protein meal in the afternoon (100 grams of protein alone in that meal)
There's no point in him showing you a body builder who cuts with 50 grams of protein while retaining his muscle mass, because he didn't talk about body builders and Samson himself didn't mention being a body builder, and if a body builder would lose muscle by consuming 50 grams of protein a day, that would be a positive because there's absolutely no point in having the muscle mass of a body builder. Optimal health for children, women or men is 0% associated with a bulky or body builder physique. What's more, Zach didn't even mention 50 grams of protein in his previous answers. Just eating 4kilos of fruits you Can get 60g of proteins in theory, and on a high ripe fruits diet you Can eat more than that with out feeling disconfort, i have personally eaten 5/10/15 kilos at once or a day with out disconfort, if you look at monkeys/apes, gibbons wich are like 10 kilos max eat up to 2 kilos of ripe fruits a day, apes such as orangutan can eat like 5kilos of ripe fruits. A day if available according to internet.
Personal experiences> studies.
Also, the higher our energy level, the stronger and more elastic our joints, the less we need to contract and stiffen our muscles to perform a movement, so a reduction in muscle mass can be a positive.
Bulging muscles isnt optimal at all.
Also, binging is common in the majority of animals we see, whether they eat meat, grass, fruit, it's not bad in itself, it depends on the food, the quantity we can ingest before manifesting negative effects varies.
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@A-Former-User said in getting super lean sickkunt:
Ok that makes a bit more sense. Yes extreme endurance is always detrimental to health and im sure the amount of plants you ate did not help your thyroid.
While i think veganism is a an anti human agenda, i also think that for it to be optimal (as optimal as a deficient diet can be) there needs to be an abundance of easily digestible carbohydrates. I think most vegans do themselves an even bigger disservice by eating way too much fibrous foods and hard to digest foods.
My days fluctuated in protein, certainly there were plenty of days in the lower range maybe even dipping into 50g protein if most of the day was rice and fruit, but i definitely had higher days eating chicken breast, tenderloin, egg whites and fat free dairy, mainly yogurt and drinking milk.
While i understand that saying the diet in not a restriction diet and at the same time saying restricting dietary fat is crucial sounds like an oxymoron, it really isnt. people that are fat need to concern themselves far less about protein, fats and even nutrients because they are wearing an excess of everything on their body. So in that sense, while their dietary fat is being restricted, they are liberating their fat stores freely and nutrition is still abundant. As long as carbohydrate consumption is high, it cant be a restriction diet as they are getting everything they need. Hopefully that makes sense, its arguing semantics and wordplay really.
The real key here is that it is different to any other fat loss diet in that way. There has never been a fat loss diet promoted that doesnt restrict calories. Carnivore/keto usually talk about not needing to restrict calories but i have not seen many actually able to get lean on those diets withour further restricting and usually they stall with a good amount of fat to go. Those diets also physically change peoples microbiomes and metabolisms and dont allow for refeeds with carbs without disastrous effect.
Gotcha. I understand better now why you don’t consider it a restriction diet. Thank you for further explaining and clarifying your protein intake, Zach.
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@samson said in getting super lean sickkunt:
or maybe just get a girl and forget about this whole lean mean machine business to begin with...
I vote for this. Find a nice girl who’ll look at you like you hung the moon and leave your body be. It’s perfect.
