Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils)
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@LucH how is 8.75g a high dose
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@eduardo-crispino said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
how is 8.75g a high dose
It's not.
I was referring to the study. Surely a High level, even if not mentioned.
=> 64 g coconut oil for a man. -
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I figured about .8cal for the gerbils. Maybe 2% of their calories
A typical woman could be eating 2000cal so 40cal or 4-5grams which is around a one teaspoon of the oil.
Very rough approximations that I made for my own edification. It it may not be worth posting without the entire study available but the panic and terror I felt in my bones compelled me to.
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@Wabi-sabi said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
@LucH Got my figures wrong I meant 8.75 grams/day for 70kg Human, based on gerbil 100g Merci Beaucoup:
My estimate is not far off and if that's a toxic dose then I don't have long to live
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@LucH Male gerbils typically weigh 2-3 ounces (60-90 grams)
0.1 grams for a gerbil is 1.1kg-1.6g per kg of body weight (0.1/0.06, 0.1/0.9).
There isn't a HED conversion figure for gerbils - but gerbils bodyweight, typically falls between hamsters and rabbits.
Lets use the HED conversion that falls between a guinea pig and a rabbit, given the HED conversion is directly correlated to bodyweight and gerbils bodyweight are inbetween hamsters and rabbits.
So divide 1.1 and 1.6 by 0.27
So the HED dose is 4g and 5.92g of oil per kg of bodyweight
@Wabi-sabi so Wabi Sabis estimate of 280grams of oil for a 70kg man is correct:)
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Hi before you guys frantically trying calculating the optimal coconut oil for human consumption, I just want to provide a different interpretation of this study base on basic biochemistry knowledge
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Coconut oil is rich in medium-chain saturated fatty acids (MCFAs), which are rapidly absorbed and preferentially oxidized by the liver for energy rather than stored as fat.
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The basal diet given to both Coconut group (CO) and Control group (OC), contains mostly unsaturated fats, which are more prone to being stored in liver tissue as triglycerides:
The basial diet typical for this Mongolian gerbils study is as follows:
- Macronutrient breakdown (approximate):
- Carbohydrates: ~50–60%
- Proteins: ~20–25%
- Fats: ~5–10% (Mostly from vegetable oils)
- If the liver preferentially burns the coconut oil’s for fuel, it might:
Spare/accumulate more unsaturated fats from the basal diet in the liver.
The study observed increased lipid peroxidation markers and lipid droplet accumulation in the CO group’s liver, which aligns with increased oxidative stress possibly due to stored unsaturated fats undergoing peroxidation.
In addition, the study mentioned the CO group exhibited a prevention of the typical age-related increase in both body and liver mass compare to Control group, this might further suggest the oxidative damage is localized in the liver of CO group whereas the damage is spread in the entire body of OC group
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There is a theoretical basis for why coconut fat could cause different problems than other fats since it has a very odd fatty acid profile (but very close to palm kernel oil).
It should be more concerning if your ancestors were gerbils or Europeans (@Jennifer s) who never saw a coconut in their life.
It would be useful to know the background diet of the animals as the previous poster mentioned. If they had problems on the larger doses of oil mentioned then I wouldn't be concerned but if 1-2% of calories can cause harm then there could be something to learn.
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@herenow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
It should be more concerning if your ancestors were gerbils or Europeans (@Jennifer s) who never saw a coconut in their life.
Darn gerbil ancestry. First it’s the excess body hair and now this. Can’t catch a break. Maybe it’s not so bad, since I’m an American gerbil, not an European one. Kidding aside, I grew up on French, Cantonese and Polynesian cuisine and coconut was a staple. I even overcame gallbladder disease and liver “sludge,” as the ultrasound tech called it, while on a diet with coconut as my fat source, the only one that didn’t trigger attacks, and it’s still my preferred fat source, not just for consumption, I also slather it (monoï oil, specifically) on my body daily. Even my tooth paste has coconut, which reminds me, I was supposed to do a review of it on the forum. No exaggeration, I’m saturated in the stuff—coconut water, young coconut meat, coconut milk, coconut cream, coconut oil, coconut butter, coconut flakes…
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@Jennifer Hi Jennifer I remember you from RPF, good times, and if you don't mind; She’s slicker than a summer breeze, and twice as smooth,
Coconut oil in her purse — that’s her power move.
She cooks with it, sips it, swears it clears her skin,
A goddess in the kitchen and a glow from within.
Don’t need perfume — she smells like vacation,
Leaves a trail of hydration and mild flirtation
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Aww…you’re a poet, @Wabi-sabi. I love it! Smelling like vacation is exactly why I use the monoï oil. It transports me to Tahiti.
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It should be more concerning if your ancestors were gerbils
Lol. I don't think it's isolated to gerbils per se, you probably will get similar results if the study used a different mice. The issue I see is the high amount of PUFA in standard lab diet, we can't draw the conclusion coconut oil is the culprit when there is another suspect.
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@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
I grew up on French, Cantonese and Polynesian cuisine and coconut was a staple....I even overcame gallbladder disease and liver “sludge,” as the ultrasound tech called it,
Is it possible that your French ancestry made you vulnerable to coconut products? Could butter or even olive oil be safer?
I have been using lots of coconut products off an on including the oil so it's something I think about from time to time. I'm not at all Polynesian.
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@CaptainMeow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
I don't think it's isolated to gerbils
I have the same fear.
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@herenow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
I grew up on French, Cantonese and Polynesian cuisine and coconut was a staple....I even overcame gallbladder disease and liver “sludge,” as the ultrasound tech called it,
Is it possible that your French ancestry made you vulnerable to coconut products? Could butter or even olive oil be safer?
I have been using lots of coconut products off an on including the oil so it's something I think about from time to time. I'm not at all Polynesian.
Butter/dairy fat triggered my gallbladder attacks, but not coconut fat. Do you have any symptoms that are exacerbated by coconut or any liver tests that would cause you to be concerned?
Personally, I don’t feel confident in using ancestry to determine the best foods for me. Even if I did, there are question marks surrounding my ancestry. What I do know for certain is that the gallstones and liver sludge were due to thyroid disease that was triggered by the stress of mountain climbing in extreme conditions. My gallbladder and liver were healthy prior, and their diseased state completely reversed after supplementing thyroid, confirmed by a repeat ultrasound after the initial diagnosis, so climbing mountains in snow and flooded trails up to my waist, rapid river crossings, sub-zero temps with up to 60 mph winds that thrashed me against boulders like a ping pong ball, the issue was not my French ancestry and verging-on-the-need-of-an-intervention intake of the delectable drupe from the tree of life :), it was my foolishness in saying yes when my brother proposed the idea that we, having absolutely no prior experience, and I as a 45 kg Olive Oyl, climb the largest mountains in our region, with some of the worst weather in the world, to earn a patch in 7 months.
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@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
@herenow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
I grew up on French, Cantonese and Polynesian cuisine and coconut was a staple....I even overcame gallbladder disease and liver “sludge,” as the ultrasound tech called it,
Is it possible that your French ancestry made you vulnerable to coconut products? Could butter or even olive oil be safer?
I have been using lots of coconut products off an on including the oil so it's something I think about from time to time. I'm not at all Polynesian.
Butter/dairy fat triggered my gallbladder attacks, but not coconut fat. Do you have any symptoms that are exacerbated by coconut or any liver tests that would cause you to be concerned?
No. I'm bullet-proof
climbing mountains in snow and flooded trails up to my waist, rapid river crossings, sub-zero temps with up to 60 mph winds that thrashed me against boulders like a ping pong ball, the issue was not my French ancestry
Why is a white French woman doing all that crap?
But seriously, thanks for keeping the low pufa community updated on your health. I appreciate that you're willing to be a guinea gerbil for a somewhat unusual pufa depleted diet while keeping everyone informed. Most seem to disappear
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It increases oxidative stress vs lowering it in lower amounts
(Study gives insight on where the harm tips over, 0.1g per mouse vs ~ a bit under 0.2g per mouse as lauric acid makes the difference,
by the time they measured with the lower bodyweight in the higher group it works out like 4g/kg vs 9g/kg bw mice amounts) https://cs3001.substack.com/p/a-bunch-of-quick-health-and-biology.
for a person 40g+ coconut oil a day is pushing it i think
(and probably better to split it am & pm)
30g in people (looks split) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37409587/Another thing is caprylic acid has a big negative effect on bones at just 8g - 10g human equivalent. with capric acid having a smaller effect. coconut oil is ~10% caprylic + capric, people using MCT oil can hit that
LAA can be directly incorporated into mitochondria and undergo β-oxidation without a special transporter or carnitine shuttle [3, 9]. As a result, it may cause excessive OXPHOS in mitochondria and increase oxidative stress, thereby enhancing the myocardial catabolism pathway.
Immunohistochemical staining with an anti-8-OHdG antibody revealed no accumulation of oxidative stress in the myocardial tissues of the control and 2% groups.
administration of excessive LAA caused mitochondrial damage that produced myocardial damage by inducing catabolism of intracellular proteins by oxidative stress rather than inducing cardiomyocyte apoptosis.
This study revealed that administration of excessive LAA causes myocardial injury.
However, 2% LAA can be administered without inducing obvious myocardial damage.
