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    Thyroid inflamation after months of supplementing

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    • ?
      A Former User @Peatful
      last edited by

      @Peatful I was a vegetarian from age 9-30. Was a raw food vegan for some of that time. I was so sick eating that way. Then when I got pregnant I started eating meat (and raising it myself) and did GAPS type diet. I'm 40 now and have been back and forth with restricting sugar in the past 10 years, while trying to heal my gut. In the past 3 years, I have cut out most PUFAs and increased my sugar intake- mostly raw honey, coconut water, and some fruit. I eat lots of raw egg yolks and fresh goats milk. Goat, lamb and some beef. High collagen cuts mostly. Organs. Coconut oil, ghee, butter, raw cheese.

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      • ?
        A Former User @Peatful
        last edited by A Former User

        @Peatful also, I have had lots of mold exposure my whole life, as well as Lyme and Bartonella. Most of my family is diagnosed with Hypothyroidism and on thyroid. After I had my daughter, my TSH was 60. I was only put on thyroid once by a naturopath when I was 19 or 20. It was Armour and she just kept on increasing the dose because I felt nothing. Eventually I stopped getting my period for almost a year and then decided to stop taking it. I was reluctant to try again until finding Peat's work.

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        • P
          Peatful @A Former User
          last edited by

          @Sippy said in Thyroid inflamation after months of supplementing:

          @Peatful I was a vegetarian from age 9-30. Was a raw food vegan for some of that time. I was so sick eating that way. Then when I got pregnant I started eating meat (and raising it myself) and did GAPS type diet. I'm 40 now and have been back and forth with restricting sugar in the past 10 years, while trying to heal my gut. In the past 3 years, I have cut out most PUFAs and increased my sugar intake- mostly raw honey, coconut water, and some fruit. I eat lots of raw egg yolks and fresh goats milk. Goat, lamb and some beef. High collagen cuts mostly. Organs. Coconut oil, ghee, butter, raw cheese.

          Where do I begin here

          I will be direct or to the point
          But unfortunately- now I have many points

          So:

          If you were ever on the Ray Peat forum
          I speak a lot about this
          Some directly
          Most indirectly

          Being on supplemental thyroid is hurting you
          You saw it once
          And your seeing it again
          The evidence is there for you

          You’re the classic case of restrictive eating and then the stress (of pregnancy) really tipped you over

          Thyroid currently is revving your engine
          But nothing is in the tank
          This is destructive

          Btw
          As I understood Ray
          He never endorsed supplementing thyroid the way allopathic medicine does
          But that’s an aside

          You have been basically undernourished since the age of 9 ish
          Your body has been (mal)adapting for you
          Mainly using a stressed metabolic pathway vs bio energetic

          Using thyroid now with no firm foundation has pushed you deeper into a stressed state
          And a stressed metabolism cannot heal

          The further society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.

          SD

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          • ?
            A Former User @Peatful
            last edited by

            @Peatful To clarify, I was pregnant 10 years ago. I have improved my diet tremendously, specifically increasing calories and carbs over the past 3 years. I feel 10 times better than I did at 30 but I still struggle with constipation, low pulse and numbness in my extremities. I didn't want to supplement thyroid at all, but I thought it might be necessary to improve some of my symptoms. How long would you wait until you add a thyroid supplement?

            I also would love to have another child before I'm too old and was thinking supplementing thyroid would be wise to figure out before trying to conceive.

            I am interested in your approach to healing metabolism and thyroid. What has worked for you? Did you have hypothyroidism and did you ever take thyroid? I have read a lot on the old RPF and some of Ray's writing. I still don't have a clear idea of the best approach when you know you've been hypo your whole life. I do favor food over supplements.

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            • P
              Peatful @A Former User
              last edited by

              @Sippy

              I hate answering with what I did- because your needs may differ from mine

              What we do know is that the supplemental thyroid isn’t working for you

              I would personally
              Set it aside
              And get my diet in order
              As well as anything else that keeps me in the stressed lane

              Blood sugar regulation is really really important here
              40/30/30 c/p/f at each meal is a good goal
              Plus eating five or six versus three meals a day to stay steady is wise

              With just this alone
              You may see the tingling or numbness subside, temps go up, increased energy and possibly your bowels begin to move

              It takes intentionality and time
              It’s a bit laborious
              But it really helped me looking back

              For reference:
              I started on 120 NDT
              Got down to 30 pretty quickly
              And now im on nothing for two or three years now
              As you said- I use food as medicine

              The further society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.

              SD

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              • EmiliaE
                Emilia @T-3
                last edited by

                @T-3 can I please jump in and ask, why could even 2-3mcg of T3 per day induce severe hair shedding? Thank you.
                (I've been applying Ray Peat's principles since 2014.)

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                • T
                  T-3 @Emilia
                  last edited by T-3

                  @Emilia I don't know. Based on what Peat wrote responding to people responding poorly to exogenous T3, I guess you've probably already given detailed consideration to the possibility of nutrient deficiencies, imbalanced ratios (copper : zinc, phosphorous : calcium, methionine : glycine, etc.) or high estrogen, prolactin, or Peaty approaches to treating PCOS (which may not be relevant at all, as I'm only guessing).

                  Based on my own experience, it's hard for me to imagine such negative symptoms in response to such a small does (2 or 3 micrograms of T3). But then again, I fully acknowledge that we're all different. Our beautiful heterogeneity (albeit sometimes frustrating in the context of not finding the benefits of a Peat experiment that others have posted about) should be kept front of mind. I'm mindful here to avoid overgeneralizations or one-size-fits-all pronouncements regarding how T3 can be used -- or may not be needed -- to achieve whatever we're individually after regarding whatever constitutes good metabolic health.

                  I can imagine how frustrating this is and don't mean to second-guess, but I have to ask:
                  --How confident are you that your hair loss is caused by 2mcg of T3?
                  --Have you tried NDT? If so, did it feel similar? Did it lead to similar problems?

                  I'm with @Peatful in thinking that it's wise to stop anything that seems to be repeatedly causing negative symptoms. I wouldn't want you soldiering through without pausing and coming at it from a different angle.

                  On the other hand (at the risk of sounding like an uncritical promoter), I think it bears repeating that there's a lot of exaggerated fear-mongering by the medical establishment and in alt-health circles overstating (alleged) risks of T3 and NDT, while ignoring profound benefits (e.g., deliberately obscuring or discounting the work of Broda Barnes). The profoundly under-appreciated therapeutic potential for T3 notwithstanding, it seems it's not working well -- not a good match for your context -- at this time.

                  If you're willing to start a thread giving more detail about what you eat, what brought you to Peating, what health challenges led you to want to experiment with thyroid, how frequently you've experimented with the 2 or 3 mcg of T3, and more details about other things you may have noticed when experimenting with it, then this board would probably generate some further thoughts on what's going on.

                  The basics (which I'm guessing you've already thought about intensively after a decade of Peating) would be to introduce T3 when you're:
                  -- very well-fed overall (eating ample portions of whatever energy-dense foods you particularly enjoy);
                  -- getting plenty of salt;
                  -- eating good amounts of foods that provide the B vitamins and aminos that Peat talked about frequently;
                  -- consuming enough tropical fruits, ice cream, other sweets that would be generally protective against the paradoxical adrenalin/cortisol responses to T3 that Peat wrote about some people experiencing in the initial days or weeks when experimenting with thyroid meds.

                  I hope that you'll achieve what you're wanting to achieve with exogenous thyroid, should you decide to revisit T3 or NDT -- or perhaps, better, finding a way to use food to achieve it.

                  EmiliaE 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • EmiliaE
                    Emilia @T-3
                    last edited by Emilia

                    @T-3 Thank you so much for your thoughtful and knowledgeable response.

                    In terms of my current dietary approach, I typically consume around 1,500 - 2,000 mg of calcium daily, mostly from raw or unhomogenised organic milk, and quality cheeses; milk powder pancakes, fruits, honey, medjool dates, 100% dark chocolate, coffee, gelatin, organic meats, seafood (recommended by Dr. Peat), and eggs. I would occasionally eat well-cooked greens or drink their cooked juices. I follow a starch free diet 99% of the time with occasional mashed potatoes or homemade nixtamalised tortillas.

                    I've experimented with cynomel and cynoplus on and off over the years, following advice from Dr. Ray Peat on dosage. While I initially saw positive results, I now face challenges even with small amounts of thyroid, despite a nutrient rich diet and adequate caloric intake.

                    My current supplements include Progest-E, magnesium, vitamin D and K2, colostrum powder, placenta, bee pollen, B complex, pine pollen, acerola cherry powder, and powdered oyster extract when fresh oysters are unavailable.

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                    • EmiliaE
                      Emilia @T-3
                      last edited by

                      This post is deleted!
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                      • B
                        BroJonas @Emilia
                        last edited by

                        @Emilia

                        Low cholesterol comes to mind as a possibility for thyroid intolerance.

                        How are your temps anyway? Maybe extra thyroid isn’t really needed for u

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                        • EmiliaE
                          Emilia @BroJonas
                          last edited by

                          @BroJonas thank you for your response. My cholesterol levels aren't low. I often have cold hands though, classical symptoms..

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                          • EmiliaE
                            Emilia @BroJonas
                            last edited by

                            @BroJonas I have some genetic markers for thyroid hormone resistance.

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                            • T
                              T-3 @Emilia
                              last edited by T-3

                              @Emilia Your diet sounds on-point, delicious and brilliantly pro-metabolic. I'm glad you mentioned about your cholesterol levels being adequate (for endogenous youth-steroid production), which is another important consideration when trying to rule out mechanisms that may lead to unwanted symptoms in general and to thyroid supplementation in particular.

                              Warm temperature in the hands and fingers, reaction speed (moderately quick "twitchiness" in the heel/hands/wrists) and absent brain fog (cognitive tone that wants to "see new possibilities", hungry for new insight, sensitive to aesthetics, e.g. 5-sense sensory pleasure of being outdoors, at least some fleeting moments of child-like "wonder", as Peat repeatedly mentioned) are among my most reliable "intuitive" indicators of good thyroid/metabolic status. Now I better understand your frustration: having on-point pro-metabolic diet for years on end and yet cold fingers as a persistent sign of (or consistent with) hypothyroidism or some metabolic block to achieving comfortably warm body temperature.

                              Just on a hunch: might you consider trying a quarter or half a grain of NDT?

                              I mostly prefer T3. But for whole-body warmth, there are times when NDT outperforms, especially in wintertime. I think NDT is more complex. I've had paradoxical responses to it after being on it regularly for multiple months, which brings me back to nibbling a T3 tablet as the simplest and most direct way for me to achieve the pro-metabolic markers I'm able to perceive. I use NDT sporadically every winter, usually for a spell of 3 or 5 days every few weeks if I don't get as much sunshine as I'd like, or am unusually busy with a work project that keeps me stuck in the office or sleep-deprived (e.g., international travel).

                              Please let us know if you figure anything out (with or without exogenous thyroid) that returns warmth to your hands and achieves the pro-metabolic markers you're wanting.

                              EmiliaE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • EmiliaE
                                Emilia @T-3
                                last edited by

                                @T-3 thank you for your valuable time.

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                                • LucHL
                                  LucH @T-3
                                  last edited by LucH

                                  @T-3 said in Thyroid inflammation after months of supplementing:

                                  This is important information to consider: that deiodinase 3, and not RT3, inactivates T3:

                                  Well seen 👍
                                  Deiodinase and halogens
                                  *) Watch out for fluorine, chlorine and bromine
                                  Deiodination is essential to maintain TH homeostasis, and disruption can have detrimental effects. Halogen bonding (XB) to the selenium of the selenocysteine (Sec) residue in the Dio active site has been proposed to contribute to the mechanism for iodine exclusion.
                                  Xenobiotics could also inhibit Dio activity by competitively binding to the active sites of thyroid.
                                  Source:
                                  A Halogen Bonding Perspective on Iodothyronine Deiodinase Activity
                                  DOI: 10.3390/molecules25061328
                                  *) Induced reasoning
                                  If fluorine (toothpaste), chlorine (water) or bromine (nuts, seeds and fish, inorganic fruits):
                                  If e.g. fluorine occupies the place of selenium on D3 (Deiodinase 3), the thyroid cannot function properly. This can lead to excess, with non -assimilated elements when taking a supplement with T3. rT3 will be too high at the final step. =>

                                  Deiodinases control local cellular and systemic thyroid hormone availability.

                                  Reverse T3 (rT3) is a metabolically inactive form of thyroid hormone, which is generated from T4 via the type 3 5′-deiodinase enzyme.
                                  Several other conditions also are known to lead to increased production of RT3, including stress, severe dieting, low serum iron levels, cortisol deficiency and diabetes.
                                  *) Useful nutrients
                                  Micronutrients as iodine, selenium, magnesium, iron, zinc, and vitamins B12, D3, and A.
                                  DOI: 10.1097/MED.0000000000000831
                                  Note: Before taking any iodine supplement, selenium has to be brought to, even in the case of Hashimoto suspected.

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                                  • B
                                    BroJonas
                                    last edited by

                                    Peat liked to see a minimum of 160ng/dl cholesterol before adding in extra thyroid in case anyone is wondering

                                    DonkeyDudeD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • DonkeyDudeD
                                      DonkeyDude @BroJonas
                                      last edited by

                                      @BroJonas only 160? Do you have a source for that? My wife has 164 and I thought it's too low; I recall reading that he considered 160 while already on thyroid acceptable.

                                      DavidPSD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • DavidPSD
                                        DavidPS @DonkeyDude
                                        last edited by

                                        @DonkeyDude said in Thyroid inflamation after months of supplementing:

                                        only 160? Do you have a source for that?

                                        Dr. Peat . . . . anywhere between 160 and 230, it's a healthy range

                                        https://www.bioenergetic.life/clips/57dac?t=2253&c=50

                                        ““Effective health care depends on self-care” - Ivan Illich, 👀
                                        ☂️

                                        DonkeyDudeD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • DonkeyDudeD
                                          DonkeyDude @DavidPS
                                          last edited by DonkeyDude

                                          @DavidPS Thanks! Still, wouldn't it mean that 164 is a tad low for thyroid supplementation?

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                                          • DavidPSD
                                            DavidPS @DonkeyDude
                                            last edited by DavidPS

                                            @DonkeyDude - 164 is within Dr. Peat's range, so it it not low. But it is not optium either. I queried Peatbot.com.

                                            User: what is the optium level of cholesterol

                                            Peatbot.com: The optimal level of cholesterol, particularly for longevity and maintaining mental function, appears to be around 270 milligrams per deciliter (mg/dL). This is based on studies of older women and observations from rest homes, where those with a cholesterol level of 270 mg/dL had the best longevity and functionality. Additionally, the Framingham study indicated that people over the age of 50 with cholesterol levels below 200 mg/dL were more likely to develop dementia.

                                            ““Effective health care depends on self-care” - Ivan Illich, 👀
                                            ☂️

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