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    Thyroid inflamation after months of supplementing

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    • cs3000C
      cs3000 @A Former User
      last edited by cs3000

      @Sippy said in Thyroid inflamation after months of supplementing:

      so your TSH is elevated still and t4 hasnt gone up even though t3 is still low. i guess implies high deiodinase 3 activity , converting the t4 to rt3 and t3 to rt2.
      seen in low carbs/calories, high oxidative stress, chronic inflammation https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16150911/ etc

      (about the wilson protocol sounds worth a shot for some people - mainly applies to people with high T4 right . the rT3 thing its more of an indicator of high deiodinase 3 activity as dio3 = t4 -> rt3 and t3 -> a t2, apparently rt3 cant bind nuclear receptors because it lacks an iodine atom in the right place. so it cant actually block the main signalling of t3. t3 has some extra action outside of nuclear receptors so maybe it can have some effect but at extreme amounts studied . (hyperthyroidism often has high rt3 too and they still have hyperthyroid effects)
      https://thyroidpatients.ca/2019/11/14/deiodinase-type-3-plays-a-t3-blocking-function/
      https://thyroidpatients.ca/2019/11/16/rt3-versus-a-dose-of-anti-thyroid-medication/
      (but the idea isnt ruled out it just shifts in focus - to deiodinase 3 which degrades t3 to a t2 and prevents t4 becoming t3. or less dio2 which = t4->t3. And there's more than high T4 being able to counter t3, dio3 elevation , but its 1 approach)

      . My ft4 was on the lower end when i checked after about a week of stopping t3, with no temp response to t4:t3 or t3. test was a month before trying higher t3. I gave a modified version of this a shot and laddered up to 56mcg solo t3 , just to see if i could overwhelm the countering enzyme with high dose at once. but it did nothing new, he mentioned u can escalate up to dosing in the 90s if getting no response, but i figured if an entire days worth of t3 at one time isnt enough then that approach isnt for me.

      on the other side of that extremely high T4 has been used with success for mood disorders , i guess t4 has some signalling so if you overwhelm with t4 maybe it makes up for less t3 . or if not then maybe it overwhelms the amount that can be degraded to rt3. but being high end without extremes its not enough and can play a countering role (shown in brain slices), by having a little t4 around you get the benefit of extra t3 from conversion of t4 by deiodinase 1 that gets boosted by having more t3 around, as t3 wears off

      --
      right now i'm trying lower doses for longer (1 month).
      high TSH itself can worsen inflammation & cause the high antibodies and they can go away over months with lowering tsh. but need to actually get t4 t3 levels up for this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVs-SlJnzs4#t=11m
      4 options i see you could try dosing t3 only as others mentioned , even tho your t4 is low idk might be worth a go, or smaller doses at once, or higher overall dose. or if not then focusing on attempts to lower deiodinase 3 and see if get a response

      "world," as a source of new perceptions
      more https://substack.com/@cs3001

      "Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration"

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      • P
        Peatful @A Former User
        last edited by

        @Sippy said in Thyroid inflamation after months of supplementing:

        I started taking Tyromax and Tyronene 3 months ago. Worked my way up to 2 grains Tyromax and added a drop of Tyronene during the day. I had great improvements in my mood and energy, my temps went up a little and my heart rate a little too. Over the past month I started to get the feeling of a lump in my throat and general swelling in the neck and under the chin. Now I'm feeling a bit depressed in the AM and have a slight headache. I also started spotting just a little before and after my period. No hyperthyroid symptoms. My temps are 97.4-98 in the AM and 98-98.6 during the day. Heart rate is 60-70. No change after I take Tyromax or T3. Still have severe constipation and tingling in limbs.

        I've had high thyroid antibodies in the past and on my most recent blood work, before I started supplementing thyroid.

        Any advice on how I should precede would be greatly appreciated.

        Should I reduce my dose of Tyromax, or switch to T3 only or Tyromix? Should I taper off altogether?

        Hi

        Who put you on thyroid medication?

        How did they determine that dose?

        The further society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.

        SD

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        • T
          T-3 @cs3000
          last edited by T-3

          @cs3000
          This is important information to consider: that deiodinase 3, and not RT3, inactivates T3: "(hyperthyroidism often has high rt3 too and they still have hyperthyroid effects)"

          The explanation in the two links you kindly provided, with good cites of the studies supporting their claims, is excellent (new to me and I think new to many on RPF who have circulated what these links claim is a misunderstanding: namely, that RT3 is a “metabolic brake”.
          [from your first link]: “a paradox occurs in cases where RT3 and FT3 are both high-normal. In some people on desiccated thyroid (NDT / DTE) therapy, RT3 can climb to high-normal or high levels. In many of these people with high-normal RT3, illness and/or hypothyroid symptoms occur, even though their FT3 is high-normal at the same time. “

          I’d never seen this before. Thanks! And the more general point that “RT3 blocks T3” is invalid. Good that we correct this misunderstanding and base our analysis on the deiodinase 1, 2 and 3 – although we don’t have direct blood tests to directly measure any of these as far as I know.

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          • T
            T-3 @cs3000
            last edited by

            @cs3000 What, then, is the mechanism that explains why high-dose T3 can re-set one’s metabolic set point and improve hypothyroidism and “adrenal tone”? I guess that high-dose T3 could downregulate or decrease deiodinase 3? I pasted some relevant passages below.

            I can’t recall all of my own details about high-dose T3 precisely because I did this 7 to 10 years ago. Then I was on T3-only at more moderate doses for 5 years or so before experimenting with NDT. But I think it worked for me. We are, of course, all different.

            I think it was several weeks of extremely high-dose T3 that worked for me, after which I felt a clear resolution of hypothyroid symptoms and noticeably improved mental/psychological “tone”.

            What did the Wilson protocol prescribe for the short-term high-dose T3 intervention? How long was it supposed to last?

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            • ?
              A Former User @Peatful
              last edited by

              @Peatful I consulted with a naturopath who did recommend trying 4mcg t3 and maybe a half grain of NDT. I am not an established patient of hers, though. I just get blood work done at her practice and she will do short phone consults. I mostly have been working slowly upping the Tyromax dose and then I decided to try some T3. I have been monitoring temps and pulse, which remain about the same. The main symptoms I struggle with are numbness in my arms and legs (which has gotten worse), constipation, heaviness in my chest, and feeling awful in the morning despite getting 8-10 hours sleep.

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              • T
                T-3 @cs3000
                last edited by

                @cs3000
                Would it be worth considering trying 50mcg or 100mcg in one go for several days in a row to see if you get a clear response?

                Or would the deiodinase 1/2/3 mechanism that is theorized at the links above suggest more moderate dosing or shorter duration for the temporary high-T3 intervention?

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                • ?
                  A Former User @T-3
                  last edited by

                  @T-3 I was thinking it could be more of a histamine response than an actual allergy. I am recovering from toxic mold exposure for many years, so this could be a possibility. Any dried product is high in histamines.

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                  • ?
                    A Former User @cs3000
                    last edited by

                    4 options i see you could try dosing t3 only as others mentioned , even tho your t4 is low idk might be worth a go, or smaller doses at once, or higher overall dose. or if not then focusing on attempts to lower deiodinase 3 and see if get a response

                    @cs3000 are you meaning just T3 with all of these options? I was wondering if T3 only still made sense with my T4 still being low.

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                    • P
                      Peatful @A Former User
                      last edited by

                      @Sippy said in Thyroid inflamation after months of supplementing:

                      @Peatful I consulted with a naturopath who did recommend trying 4mcg t3 and maybe a half grain of NDT. I am not an established patient of hers, though. I just get blood work done at her practice and she will do short phone consults. I mostly have been working slowly upping the Tyromax dose and then I decided to try some T3. I have been monitoring temps and pulse, which remain about the same. The main symptoms I struggle with are numbness in my arms and legs (which has gotten worse), constipation, heaviness in my chest, and feeling awful in the morning despite getting 8-10 hours sleep.

                      Ok. This is helpful.

                      Anything of significance in your pmhx?
                      That’s past medical history

                      I have something to add
                      But
                      I’d also like to hear from you about your dietary history

                      Just briefly
                      Nothing in depth required

                      The further society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.

                      SD

                      ? 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • ?
                        A Former User @Peatful
                        last edited by

                        @Peatful I was a vegetarian from age 9-30. Was a raw food vegan for some of that time. I was so sick eating that way. Then when I got pregnant I started eating meat (and raising it myself) and did GAPS type diet. I'm 40 now and have been back and forth with restricting sugar in the past 10 years, while trying to heal my gut. In the past 3 years, I have cut out most PUFAs and increased my sugar intake- mostly raw honey, coconut water, and some fruit. I eat lots of raw egg yolks and fresh goats milk. Goat, lamb and some beef. High collagen cuts mostly. Organs. Coconut oil, ghee, butter, raw cheese.

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                        • ?
                          A Former User @Peatful
                          last edited by A Former User

                          @Peatful also, I have had lots of mold exposure my whole life, as well as Lyme and Bartonella. Most of my family is diagnosed with Hypothyroidism and on thyroid. After I had my daughter, my TSH was 60. I was only put on thyroid once by a naturopath when I was 19 or 20. It was Armour and she just kept on increasing the dose because I felt nothing. Eventually I stopped getting my period for almost a year and then decided to stop taking it. I was reluctant to try again until finding Peat's work.

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                          • P
                            Peatful @A Former User
                            last edited by

                            @Sippy said in Thyroid inflamation after months of supplementing:

                            @Peatful I was a vegetarian from age 9-30. Was a raw food vegan for some of that time. I was so sick eating that way. Then when I got pregnant I started eating meat (and raising it myself) and did GAPS type diet. I'm 40 now and have been back and forth with restricting sugar in the past 10 years, while trying to heal my gut. In the past 3 years, I have cut out most PUFAs and increased my sugar intake- mostly raw honey, coconut water, and some fruit. I eat lots of raw egg yolks and fresh goats milk. Goat, lamb and some beef. High collagen cuts mostly. Organs. Coconut oil, ghee, butter, raw cheese.

                            Where do I begin here

                            I will be direct or to the point
                            But unfortunately- now I have many points

                            So:

                            If you were ever on the Ray Peat forum
                            I speak a lot about this
                            Some directly
                            Most indirectly

                            Being on supplemental thyroid is hurting you
                            You saw it once
                            And your seeing it again
                            The evidence is there for you

                            You’re the classic case of restrictive eating and then the stress (of pregnancy) really tipped you over

                            Thyroid currently is revving your engine
                            But nothing is in the tank
                            This is destructive

                            Btw
                            As I understood Ray
                            He never endorsed supplementing thyroid the way allopathic medicine does
                            But that’s an aside

                            You have been basically undernourished since the age of 9 ish
                            Your body has been (mal)adapting for you
                            Mainly using a stressed metabolic pathway vs bio energetic

                            Using thyroid now with no firm foundation has pushed you deeper into a stressed state
                            And a stressed metabolism cannot heal

                            The further society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.

                            SD

                            ? 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • ?
                              A Former User @Peatful
                              last edited by

                              @Peatful To clarify, I was pregnant 10 years ago. I have improved my diet tremendously, specifically increasing calories and carbs over the past 3 years. I feel 10 times better than I did at 30 but I still struggle with constipation, low pulse and numbness in my extremities. I didn't want to supplement thyroid at all, but I thought it might be necessary to improve some of my symptoms. How long would you wait until you add a thyroid supplement?

                              I also would love to have another child before I'm too old and was thinking supplementing thyroid would be wise to figure out before trying to conceive.

                              I am interested in your approach to healing metabolism and thyroid. What has worked for you? Did you have hypothyroidism and did you ever take thyroid? I have read a lot on the old RPF and some of Ray's writing. I still don't have a clear idea of the best approach when you know you've been hypo your whole life. I do favor food over supplements.

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                              • P
                                Peatful @A Former User
                                last edited by

                                @Sippy

                                I hate answering with what I did- because your needs may differ from mine

                                What we do know is that the supplemental thyroid isn’t working for you

                                I would personally
                                Set it aside
                                And get my diet in order
                                As well as anything else that keeps me in the stressed lane

                                Blood sugar regulation is really really important here
                                40/30/30 c/p/f at each meal is a good goal
                                Plus eating five or six versus three meals a day to stay steady is wise

                                With just this alone
                                You may see the tingling or numbness subside, temps go up, increased energy and possibly your bowels begin to move

                                It takes intentionality and time
                                It’s a bit laborious
                                But it really helped me looking back

                                For reference:
                                I started on 120 NDT
                                Got down to 30 pretty quickly
                                And now im on nothing for two or three years now
                                As you said- I use food as medicine

                                The further society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.

                                SD

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                                • EmiliaE
                                  Emilia @T-3
                                  last edited by

                                  @T-3 can I please jump in and ask, why could even 2-3mcg of T3 per day induce severe hair shedding? Thank you.
                                  (I've been applying Ray Peat's principles since 2014.)

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                                  • T
                                    T-3 @Emilia
                                    last edited by T-3

                                    @Emilia I don't know. Based on what Peat wrote responding to people responding poorly to exogenous T3, I guess you've probably already given detailed consideration to the possibility of nutrient deficiencies, imbalanced ratios (copper : zinc, phosphorous : calcium, methionine : glycine, etc.) or high estrogen, prolactin, or Peaty approaches to treating PCOS (which may not be relevant at all, as I'm only guessing).

                                    Based on my own experience, it's hard for me to imagine such negative symptoms in response to such a small does (2 or 3 micrograms of T3). But then again, I fully acknowledge that we're all different. Our beautiful heterogeneity (albeit sometimes frustrating in the context of not finding the benefits of a Peat experiment that others have posted about) should be kept front of mind. I'm mindful here to avoid overgeneralizations or one-size-fits-all pronouncements regarding how T3 can be used -- or may not be needed -- to achieve whatever we're individually after regarding whatever constitutes good metabolic health.

                                    I can imagine how frustrating this is and don't mean to second-guess, but I have to ask:
                                    --How confident are you that your hair loss is caused by 2mcg of T3?
                                    --Have you tried NDT? If so, did it feel similar? Did it lead to similar problems?

                                    I'm with @Peatful in thinking that it's wise to stop anything that seems to be repeatedly causing negative symptoms. I wouldn't want you soldiering through without pausing and coming at it from a different angle.

                                    On the other hand (at the risk of sounding like an uncritical promoter), I think it bears repeating that there's a lot of exaggerated fear-mongering by the medical establishment and in alt-health circles overstating (alleged) risks of T3 and NDT, while ignoring profound benefits (e.g., deliberately obscuring or discounting the work of Broda Barnes). The profoundly under-appreciated therapeutic potential for T3 notwithstanding, it seems it's not working well -- not a good match for your context -- at this time.

                                    If you're willing to start a thread giving more detail about what you eat, what brought you to Peating, what health challenges led you to want to experiment with thyroid, how frequently you've experimented with the 2 or 3 mcg of T3, and more details about other things you may have noticed when experimenting with it, then this board would probably generate some further thoughts on what's going on.

                                    The basics (which I'm guessing you've already thought about intensively after a decade of Peating) would be to introduce T3 when you're:
                                    -- very well-fed overall (eating ample portions of whatever energy-dense foods you particularly enjoy);
                                    -- getting plenty of salt;
                                    -- eating good amounts of foods that provide the B vitamins and aminos that Peat talked about frequently;
                                    -- consuming enough tropical fruits, ice cream, other sweets that would be generally protective against the paradoxical adrenalin/cortisol responses to T3 that Peat wrote about some people experiencing in the initial days or weeks when experimenting with thyroid meds.

                                    I hope that you'll achieve what you're wanting to achieve with exogenous thyroid, should you decide to revisit T3 or NDT -- or perhaps, better, finding a way to use food to achieve it.

                                    EmiliaE 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • EmiliaE
                                      Emilia @T-3
                                      last edited by Emilia

                                      @T-3 Thank you so much for your thoughtful and knowledgeable response.

                                      In terms of my current dietary approach, I typically consume around 1,500 - 2,000 mg of calcium daily, mostly from raw or unhomogenised organic milk, and quality cheeses; milk powder pancakes, fruits, honey, medjool dates, 100% dark chocolate, coffee, gelatin, organic meats, seafood (recommended by Dr. Peat), and eggs. I would occasionally eat well-cooked greens or drink their cooked juices. I follow a starch free diet 99% of the time with occasional mashed potatoes or homemade nixtamalised tortillas.

                                      I've experimented with cynomel and cynoplus on and off over the years, following advice from Dr. Ray Peat on dosage. While I initially saw positive results, I now face challenges even with small amounts of thyroid, despite a nutrient rich diet and adequate caloric intake.

                                      My current supplements include Progest-E, magnesium, vitamin D and K2, colostrum powder, placenta, bee pollen, B complex, pine pollen, acerola cherry powder, and powdered oyster extract when fresh oysters are unavailable.

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                                      • EmiliaE
                                        Emilia @T-3
                                        last edited by

                                        This post is deleted!
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                                        • B
                                          BroJonas @Emilia
                                          last edited by

                                          @Emilia

                                          Low cholesterol comes to mind as a possibility for thyroid intolerance.

                                          How are your temps anyway? Maybe extra thyroid isn’t really needed for u

                                          EmiliaE 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • EmiliaE
                                            Emilia @BroJonas
                                            last edited by

                                            @BroJonas thank you for your response. My cholesterol levels aren't low. I often have cold hands though, classical symptoms..

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