What Vitamin B cofactors should I supplement?

pittybitty

Taking a Swanson Balance B-50 supplement, 1x every second day, +250mg Thiamin HCL:

300mg of Thiamin HCL
50mg of Riboflavin, Niacinamide, Pyridoxine HCl, Cholin, Inositol and PABA.
50mcg of Cyanocobalamin and Biotin.
400mcg folic acid.

Is there anything I should add? I heard supplementing Thiamin causes Magnesium depletion, is there any other cofactors I should be aware of?

Diet is Oranges, Potatoes, Pasta, Pastries, Milk and Coffee.

LucH

@pittybitty said in What Vitamin B cofactors should I supplement?:

Is there anything I should add? I heard supplementing Thiamin causes Magnesium depletion, is there any other cofactors I should be aware of?

Hi,
You need enough sodium and particularly high level of potassium.
I take potassium citrate (oxalate prevention).
Shaker at breakfast and midday.
I won't take Vit B with coffee (diuretic) but appart from digestion. You lose +/ 0.5 gr salt (urinary excretion). + reabsorption difficult if too high in caffeine.
Do it according to taste (needs).
400 mcg folic acid is not the optimal form when taking high dose B9. However it's the maximum tolerated. Impact on B12 possible. Upper limit advised is often 1 000 mcg B9 but that's too high. 400 mcg is the advised limit.
doi: 10.1093/advances/nmab106
But as you take the complex every other day, it's more or less OK with your choice. Half-life must be taken into account. After one week, I would rather take the complex 2x/wk. that what I do,
For other readers:
Get informed on too high B6 with Pyridoxine HCL (PNP) Here, it's ok with 50 mg.
I can give a link if wanted.

LucH

When I say apart, it means you take coffee apart from digestion.
Most Vitamins B mut be taken with food.

BioEclectic

Agreed with LucH's post as far as i can tell at the moment.

The included folate is definitely not the optimal type. That's a topic worthy of it's own research by the way.

Yes to Magnesium.

Supplementing extra B1 along with the B-complex would be helpful for many.

Supplementing extra B3 Niacinamide would also be helpful for many.

Agreed with the B6 concerns. Back before i knew any better my B100 complex caused some of the B6 symptoms to appear, thankfully they've stopped after i switched pills and doses. I now microdose a B50 by splitting into four pieces, then take two of those pieces per day, morning and late noon. I also have most of the B's as separates which i take on certain days and at varying doses. And i use nutritional yeast flakes sparingly.

Ismail

Yes to the magnesium for sure and potassium and sodium.

Elliot Overton specifically mentions what needs to be taken whilst taking B1 (he specially talks about the TTFD type if I’m not mistaken).

His video discussing this on YouTube is something along the lines of “The B1 paradox” or something like that.

Peatslop enjoyer

@LucH said in What Vitamin B cofactors should I supplement?:

Get informed on too high B6 with Pyridoxine HCL (PNP) Here, it's ok with 50 mg.
I can give a link if wanted.

Could you provide the link? Thank you.

LucH

@Peatslop-enjoyer said in What Vitamin B cofactors should I supplement?:

Could you provide the link? Thank you.

Vitamin B6: How much is too much? Which kind, with staples.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2033-english-corner-vit-b6-how-much-is-too-much#29628
Excerpt:
The English Corner – Vit B6: How much is too much?
Main ideas

Too much of a good thing is bad. Especially bad for neuro-sensitive people.
Vitamin B6 is well documented for its role as a modulator of steroid hormones.
No problem with food intake if not supplemented.
Maximum RDA target is 25 mg B6.
There are 6 vitamers and a way-out form through the urine.
If we want a pharmacological effect, we have to take into account the form of the vitamers.
The active form is B6 PLP.
Look at the 6 vitamers form before continuing (figure):
3 basic forms of vitamers B6:
```
   PN= pyridoxine
```
```
   PL = pyridoxal
```
```
   PM = pyridoxamine
```

And their derivative, coupled with a phosphate molecule:

```
   PNP = pyridoxine 5’-phosphate
```

   PLP = Pyridoxal 5’-Phosphate (active form)

```
   PMP = Pyridoxamine 5’-Phosphate
```

And the form used as a catabolite (excreted in the urine)

```
   PA = 4-Pyridoxic acid.
```
A tight regulation of the PLP concentration is necessary in the cell: The aldehydes are toxic. A self -regulation and a protective mechanism coexist. But there is a radical side effect: PLP will no longer passes the encephalic barrier. A withdrawal effect will soon take place, with an impact on neurotransmitters.
PMP is a safer form: PMP is slightly increased in plasma, and rapidly converted into PLP and PL when needed.
An excess of pyridoxine (PN) is deleterious. No pyridoxine supplement advised: PN has an inhibition effect on PLP, the active form.
PL could be converted to PN by a PL reductase (side effects when too high supplementation).
PM could be more suitable for supplementation because of the very low formation of PN by PM.
If we suffer from a lack of enzymes, we must pay attention to the conversion pathway: PLP as a coenzyme factor has a pivotal role in catalysis of various enzymatic reactions.
See the roles of PNP-dependent enzymes, namely kinase and oxidase (+ phosphatase).
To be continued on the link. See above (my forum: Mirzoune et Ciboulette).
A tight regulation of the PLP concentration is necessary in the cell: The aldehydes are toxic.
We must not go beyond the absorption capacity of the body. We are not all equal. If you suffer from inflammation, if you need more antioxidants, you will probably burn more B6. What should be avoided is to approach the limit / the level of an overburdened of metabolism. A limit that will be different, depending on the individual.
Why does an excess of B6 or an inadequate enzymatic metabolism cause a problem of neuro-sensitivity? An excess of Pyridoxal (PLP) will lead to the inhibition of the enzyme PLK (Pyridoxal Kinase). PLK is set out of function via the “Salvage pathway” process. Details on the link, with references.
Useful link
*) English corner: B6 leads to decrease of cytokines in neuropathy
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2041-english-corner-b6-leads-to-decrease-of-cytokines-in-neuropathy#29659
Efficacy of Vitamin B1, B6, and B12 in Peripheral Neuropathy
*) Useful nutrients in case of neuropathy
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2031-haute-dose-de-b6-p5p-contre-algodystrophie-et-scc#29618
Mg bisglycinate, Zinc, Vit B6 PLP 20-25 mg, Vit C 500 mg, Vit D 5 000 UI (with K2).
*) English Corner: Anti-Stress & Neuro-Protective Effects of Thiamine (B1)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2045-english-corner-anti-stress-neuro-protective-effects-of-thiamine-b1

See part 2 (in the same post): How much and which kind of thiamine?
Excerpt from video of Dr. Allil OVERTON.
=> Practical example for beginner (patient N° 1): Basic protocol for thiamin insufficiency.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2045-english-corner-anti-stress-neuro-protective-effects-of-thiamine-b1#29716
With references.