Ideas for getting more CO2 into your everyday routine
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@josh Thiamine is a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor.
https://medium.com/eds-perspectives/why-does-high-dose-thiamine-relieve-fatigue-in-individuals-with-diverse-neurological-conditions-40a3502f6439 -
@josh said in Ideas for getting more CO2 into your everyday routine:
Breathing carbogen and sleeping in it like on oxygen as used in hospitals is safe. The worst that can happen is developing respiratory acidosis. But like anything, it helps not to be a dumb user. As using it correctly is not rocket science, and listening to AMA propaganda makes one dumber and sicker ( like the scam of CPAP respiratory therapy).
Sorry @yerrag after that huge ramble i forgot to ask how do you use it when you sleep with it on and stay safe? Just interested in your personal experience, im in danger of being a dumb user!
It is safe to use as you sleep. Carbogen is normally meant to be used as a 5% mixture of CO2 with the rest of the mixture being oxygen. But the carbogen machine as sold does away with pure oxygen and in its place is atmospheric air, which is 79 percent oxygen.So the carbon dioxide is adjusted accordingly to have that relative ratio to oxygen. All you would need is a tank of CO2 and you save trouble of having an additional tank of oxygen or an oxygen concentrator.
I had to tweak my carbogen setup as it came with a mask that I have to hold in place, which makes it hard to sleep with it, as I have to be awake to be able to the mask cupped. I finally modified enough such that I am like breathing using a CPAP machine, except that I'm breathing carbogen instead of oxygen and atmosphere ( as you know breathing pure oxygen kills).
Breathing carbogen does not kill. No matter what bad the medical complex says about carbogen, it is not to be trusted given how it maligns good treatments and substances ranging from the Rife machine to real vitamin E to estrogen good progesterone bad and how it purposefully misdiagnoses thyroid conditions and makes us fear microbes unduly with the banshee of covid-19. Carbogen is very safe to use. But like anything, it can be used wrongly and there are idiots in this world who are the shyster's dream via the litigious Talmudist sue happy system in their conceptualized and practiced ”rule of law," which is in reality a barbaric way of implementing rules among so called civilized people and nations.
Unlike with oxygen tanks where you can increase the flow of oxygen to provide a positive pressure by increasing the flow rate to as high as 5 lpm (liters per minute), the flow rate of carbogen is fixed and it is like breathing normally. What you can tweak is the ratio of CO2 ranging from 0 to 10% and no higher. This gives the user some latitude as user's response to carbogen would vary with context.
I've experienced increased breathing rate which is easily detected by both the user and by an observer on duty, be it a caregiver or nurse or a relative. When the breath rate increases too much, it is because the blood acidity becomes high enough to trigger a respiratory safety reflex to increase the breathing rate. This increased breathing rate is normally induced by metabolic acidosis, and in cases of lung issues like emphysema, by respiratory acidosis (where expelling CO2 is difficult due to gas exchange issues due alveoli being blocked from exchanging gases by thick phlegm).
But in the use of carbogen, the increased blood acidity is caused usually by an existing high amount of lactic acid in blood, which leaves little room for carbon dioxide, in the form of carbonic acid, to be present in blood - without causing the respiratory reflex to kick in and increase the breathing rate, in an attempt to lower the CO2 in blood.
But this attempt to lower CO2 in blood via increased breathing is going to be a fail, as the lungs cannot breathe out lactic acid. So the high rate of breathing does not stop. As the lungs cannot do what the kidneys do, but the kidneys excrete lactic acid albeit in a delayed response, at its own time of choosing, which is usually at night when the body is in a detoxing mode.
Knowing this, one can adjust lower the CO2, or better yet, start with a low CO2 setting, and gradually increase to where high breathing rate gives a sign to stop.
It will also help, while at it, to take thiamine, in order to help lower the lactic acid in blood, to give more room for blood to take in more CO2 without causing increased breathing rate.
As you can see, this is no rocket science.
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Thanks @mostlylurking, great article and gives the dosages, might be worth trying 600mg, wondering whether high thiamine would unbalance the other b vitamins?
One thought today is how critical timing of the intervention is. My physiological stress, like many, peaks at night making me feel awful on waking. I think i must become very low energy at night and my stress hormones have to take over. I think thats why the co2 bath in the evening has been effective.Maybe there is a slow release thiamine?
This is where the carbogenetic inhaler set at a low co2 % could come into its own, instead of a pulse of co2, its a more gradual sustained level of co2. @yerrag what percentage co2 did you run your inhaler at overnight? thought i would try 2% to start for 8 hrs. Also wondering if there is a variable resistor in the inhaler electronics that can be tweaked to let it stay on for longer!
Iv also heard that in cancer you want to try a sustain an alkaline state ph of 8, which maybe a sustained use of the inhaler will help with. Can test with urine strips, and when ph8 reached i could maybe see how this correlates to a the oxygen saturation on a pulse oximeter. Once i know the number the pulse oximeter dips to when the co2 displaces the o2 when at ph8, i can use the oximeter as a quicker check to see what the ph is being sustained at. Will need to retest on mum. Thoughts?
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Thanks @yerrag sorry i sent my message before i was your reply. I appreciate the detail you have given, my inhaler is on order!
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Thyroid.
aspirin (+ vit K + glycine).
cascara sagrada.
niacinimide.
bag breathing.
These things moved the needle most for me.
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@josh said in Ideas for getting more CO2 into your everyday routine:
Thanks @mostlylurking, great article and gives the dosages, might be worth trying 600mg, wondering whether high thiamine would unbalance the other b vitamins?
Yes, other b's can get depleted. Anytime you improve oxidative metabolism, whether it's from supplementing thyroid hormones or from thiamine, the act of increasing/improving metabolism is naturally going to use up other nutrients faster. B2 is one to consider taking more of. A good b-complex in addition to high dose thiamine would be helpful.
Here's a good interview about thiamine that you might find helpful.
One thought today is how critical timing of the intervention is. My physiological stress, like many, peaks at night making me feel awful on waking. I think i must become very low energy at night and my stress hormones have to take over. I think thats why the co2 bath in the evening has been effective.Maybe there is a slow release thiamine?
I follow Dr. Costantini's protocol and his advice. He recommended to always take the last dose of thiamine for the day by 3:00pm because later doses can interfere with sleep. I suspect this is because thiamine improves the conversion of blood glucose into cellular energy which would lower blood sugar which can wake you up.
This is where the carbogenetic inhaler set at a low co2 % could come into its own, instead of a pulse of co2, its a more gradual sustained level of co2. @yerrag what percentage co2 did you run your inhaler at overnight? thought i would try 2% to start for 8 hrs. Also wondering if there is a variable resistor in the inhaler electronics that can be tweaked to let it stay on for longer!
Iv also heard that in cancer you want to try a sustain an alkaline state ph of 8, which maybe a sustained use of the inhaler will help with. Can test with urine strips, and when ph8 reached i could maybe see how this correlates to a the oxygen saturation on a pulse oximeter. Once i know the number the pulse oximeter dips to when the co2 displaces the o2 when at ph8, i can use the oximeter as a quicker check to see what the ph is being sustained at. Will need to retest on mum. Thoughts?
Metabolic Acidosis and Thiamine Deficiency
High Dose Vitamin B1 Reduces Proliferation in Cancer Cell Lines Analogous to Dichloroacetate
another video:
The Amazing Link Between Thiamine And Fighting Cancer -
Thanks @LetTheRedeemed! I take 2 gram of taurine but have heard L-glycine mentioned positively a few times, what sort of effect do you think it gives you? Do you split doses or take them at certain times?
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Wow thanks @mostlylurking i will get stuck i to this!
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@mostlylurking said:
Yes, other b's can get depleted. Anytime you improve oxidative metabolism, whether it's from supplementing thyroid hormones or from thiamine, the act of increasing/improving metabolism is naturally going to use up other nutrients faster. B2 is one to consider taking more of. A good b-complex in addition to high dose thiamine would be helpful.
@mostlylurking said:
I suspect this is because thiamine improves the conversion of blood glucose into cellular energy which would lower blood sugar which can wake you up.
Humans have no thiaminase to break down thiamin. What's known about the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways is quite murky.
They are very strong inhibitors of MAO and other aminoxidases, especially in the ganglia. This (also) happens through displacement of enzymatic flavoproteins (made from vitamin B2, which is crucial but of which very little (not even double-digit mg/day) is needed).
Much stronger than rasagiline, selegiline.
The MAO-inhibiting metabolites of thiamin are also very long lasting in the human body, as their effects wear on for two to three weeks, easily. Although once a week as per Constatini really maintains the maximum plateau.
This MAO-inhibition, beside the positive metabolic effects of active thiamin itself, is the main reason for Constatini's high-dose-thiamin protocol working so well.
Since thiamin and its metabolites also effect MAO-A it can cause strong diarrhea.
Now, this is not only because of flavoprotein displacement in various aminooxidases, though, but to a far extent due to the lack of available glucose which in turn raises stress and adrenergic hormone actions and serotonin at tissue levels.
It's important to generously supply glucose through carbohydrates or dextrose with HDT (high dose thiamin).
AFAIK this immediate glucose context about HDT has not been put forth appropriately to its crucial significance anywhere. Not by Constatini, not by Lonsdale at hormonesmatter, not by Georgi nor at the lowtoxinforum. -
Thanks for this @CrumblingCookie. It seems like Thiamine, as with other pro metabolic substances like thyroid, needs to be supported with plenty of fuel, from good sugars. I have always been pretty thin which i now put down to stress hormones, so not too worried about over fuelling at the moment, but it is amazing as my stress hormones have come down im starting to put weight on for the first time in my life.
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The best way is to have a lifestyle of raising CO2 in everything that you do and preventing loss of CO2. For example, taping your mouth at night if you're a mouth breather is a great help. When you're walking around, always nose breathe, nose breathe all the time. And when you're walking or exercising, build up air hunger so that you always want more air than you're actually getting.
These train the respiratory centers in the nervous system to get accustomed to a higher CO2 level all the time and will make you much healthier.
These are the principles that Professor Buteyko discovered and they are how I live my life and it has been a great advantage. I don't get winded when I go up hills. I have tremendous endurance even compared to people who are supposedly very fit and I can exercise without ever having to mouth breathe.
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@CrumblingCookie said in Ideas for getting more CO2 into your everyday routine:
@mostlylurking said:
Yes, other b's can get depleted. Anytime you improve oxidative metabolism, whether it's from supplementing thyroid hormones or from thiamine, the act of increasing/improving metabolism is naturally going to use up other nutrients faster. B2 is one to consider taking more of. A good b-complex in addition to high dose thiamine would be helpful.
@mostlylurking said:
I suspect this is because thiamine improves the conversion of blood glucose into cellular energy which would lower blood sugar which can wake you up.
Humans have no thiaminase to break down thiamin. What's known about the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways is quite murky.
They are very strong inhibitors of MAO and other aminoxidases, especially in the ganglia. This (also) happens through displacement of enzymatic flavoproteins (made from vitamin B2, which is crucial but of which very little (not even double-digit mg/day) is needed).
Much stronger than rasagiline, selegiline.
The MAO-inhibiting metabolites of thiamin are also very long lasting in the human body, as their effects wear on for two to three weeks, easily. Although once a week as per Constatini really maintains the maximum plateau.
This MAO-inhibition, beside the positive metabolic effects of active thiamin itself, is the main reason for Constatini's high-dose-thiamin protocol working so well.
Since thiamin and its metabolites also effect MAO-A it can cause strong diarrhea.
Now, this is not only because of flavoprotein displacement in various aminooxidases, though, but to a far extent due to the lack of available glucose which in turn raises stress and adrenergic hormone actions and serotonin at tissue levels.
It's important to generously supply glucose through carbohydrates or dextrose with HDT (high dose thiamin).
AFAIK this immediate glucose context about HDT has not been put forth appropriately to its crucial significance anywhere. Not by Constatini, not by Lonsdale at hormonesmatter, not by Georgi nor at the lowtoxinforum.Kindly provide links to references for your statements about thiamine. Although I've spent a lot of time trying to find info about "The MAO-inhibiting metabolites of thiamin" and "The MAO-inhibiting metabolites of thiamine" no results from these searches are obtainable.
You stated: "What's known about the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways is quite murky."
"the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways" search results are extensive. Although complex, they seem pretty well defined to me.The importance of thiamine (vitamin B1) in humans
Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) – Structure, Properties, Functions, Deficiency
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@mostlylurking said:
You stated: "What's known about the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways is quite murky."
"the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways" search results are extensive. Although complex, they seem pretty well defined to me.I was hoping to discover something new which I might have missed before but unfortunately all I could spot in these links above is this properly poor
"Elimination: Thiamine is a water-soluble vitamin; excess thiamine is exerted in the urine."
but no info or consideration on anything about the metabolic breakdown of thiamin. Am I being selectively blind or were you under the assumption that excess thiamin is simply being renally exreted, 1:1, completely unaltered?
I shall kindly provide what I could unravel on thiamin and aminooxidases. I've had to dig really deep for it. All the more I could appreciate later and further findings on these:
NAKAMURA, T. (1960). INHIBITION OF D-AMINO ACID OXIDASE BY THIAMINE AND THIAMINE DIPHOSPHATE. THE JOURNAL OF VITAMINOLOGY, 6(2), 103–108. doi:10.5925/jnsv1954.6.103
Meltzer, H. Y. (1961). The effect of thiamine on monoamine oxidase. Biochemical Pharmacology, 7(3-4), 277–278. doi:10.1016/0006-2952(61)90095-8
"in thiamine-deficient rats, the MAO-activity of the brain and intestine is increased"
"These workers suggested that the increase might be related to the stress theory of Selye"
"in vivo, thiamine, which has a quaternary nitrogen in its thiazole moiety, is either itself an inhibitor of MAO, or more likely, is metabolized via a pathway which produces another quaternary nitrogen compound which is an inhibitor of MAO"
"The MAO-inhibition caused by this thiamine-like compound also might explain the hypotension and ganglionic blockade which thiamine produces in man and experimental animals; hypotension in man has been noted with the administration of inhibitors of MAO."
This or these very potent MAO-inhibiting thiamin metabolites are not fully created two hours after injection, but gradually build up over a day or two or so:
"rats given 70 mg of thiamine per kg subcutaneously, and sacrificed after 2 hr, when thiamine pyrosphosphate levels in liver are elevated, showed no inhibition of the MAO activity of liver, brain, and intestine, as compared with untreated controls. However, this does not constitute a refutation of the proposed theory, if the rate of formation of the postulated thiamine metabolite proceeds maximally with the amount of thiamine provided by a normal diet."
"Although in higher animals most of the thiamine which is absorbed is excreted unchanged, the fate of the thiamine which is degraded is largely unknown."
"This action of thiamine is unrelated to its properties as a coenzyme.[4]"
@josh That's a good thing to read about you putting on (previously lacking) weight!
Yes, with thyroid hormones it's very important, too. Quite some people crash when starting thyroid and fall prey to abominable self-enriching creatures and their harmful, incomplete and misguided fables of adrenal fatigue allegedly brought about or amplified by thyroid hormone functions which makes them tenaciously believe in that they now require extra cortisone to metabolically cope. -
@CrumblingCookie links? Links would be helpful.
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@CrumblingCookie said in Ideas for getting more CO2 into your everyday routine:
@mostlylurking said:
You stated: "What's known about the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways is quite murky."
"the metabolites of thiamin in the human body and their pathways" search results are extensive. Although complex, they seem pretty well defined to me.I was hoping to discover something new which I might have missed before but unfortunately all I could spot in these links above is this properly poor
"Elimination: Thiamine is a water-soluble vitamin; excess thiamine is exerted in the urine."
but no info or consideration on anything about the metabolic breakdown of thiamin. Am I being selectively blind or were you under the assumption that excess thiamin is simply being renally exreted, 1:1, completely unaltered?
I shall kindly provide what I could unravel on thiamin and aminooxidases. I've had to dig really deep for it. All the more I could appreciate later and further findings on these:
NAKAMURA, T. (1960). INHIBITION OF D-AMINO ACID OXIDASE BY THIAMINE AND THIAMINE DIPHOSPHATE. THE JOURNAL OF VITAMINOLOGY, 6(2), 103–108. doi:10.5925/jnsv1954.6.103
Meltzer, H. Y. (1961). The effect of thiamine on monoamine oxidase. Biochemical Pharmacology, 7(3-4), 277–278. doi:10.1016/0006-2952(61)90095-8
"in thiamine-deficient rats, the MAO-activity of the brain and intestine is increased"
link?
MAO activity definition: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/monoamine-oxidase:
"Monoamine oxidase is an enzyme that plays a role in breaking down neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine." So an increase of MAO-activity would lower serotonin. Right? This is why taking an MAO inhibitor along with an SSRI is dangerous because it can cause serotinin toxicity.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/509224/
"Serotonin turnover has been investigated in regional brain areas of rats made thiamine deficient by pyrithiamine (PT). Following intracisternal injection of [14C]5-hydroxytryptamine ([14C]5-HT), a marked increase in the accumulation of [14C]5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ([14C]5-HIAA) was found in the medulla-pons, hypothalamus and cerebral cortex. [14C]5-HT levels were normal in all of the brain areas except the cerebral cortex which had an increase of 58%. The ratio of [14C]5-HIAA/[14C]5-HT was significantly increased in every brain region of PT-treated rats except the cerebral cortex. Part of this increase in [14C]5-HIAA was shown to be due to impairment of active transport of this 5-HT metabolite out of the brain. However, increased 5-HT synthesis in the cerebellum, hypothalamus, striatum, hippocampus and cerebral cortex was demonstrated by measurement of 5-HT accumulation after inhibition of brain monoamine oxidase. PT-induced increase in endogenous 5-HIAA in the medulla-pons occurred simultaneously with the onset of neurological signs and both parameters were reversible by thiamine administration. These results suggest that acute thiamine deficiency, induced by PT, both increases brain 5-HT synthesis and impairs 5-HIAA efflux from the brain. There is a close correlation between neurological manifestations and changes in brain 5-HT metabolism in acute thiamine deficiency. ""These workers suggested that the increase might be related to the stress theory of Selye in vivo, thiamine, which has a quaternary nitrogen in its thiazole moiety, is either itself an inhibitor of MAO, or more likely, is metabolized via a pathway which produces another quaternary nitrogen compound which is an inhibitor of MAO"
link? The increase of what?
From personal experience, I do not believe that thiamine is an MAO inhibitor. Methylene Blue acts as an MAO inhibitor. Before I started high dosing thiamine hcl, I had problems with high serotonin. I reacted badly to bananas and also to pineapple, both are serotonergic foods. I also reacted very badly to MB, which is known to be an MAO inhibitor. I recovered via high dose thiamine hcl. So my own personal experience confirms (at least for me) that thiamine (and its metabolites) do not act as MAO inhibitors.
"The MAO-inhibition caused by this thiamine-like compound also might explain the hypotension and ganglionic blockade which thiamine produces in man and experimental animals; hypotension in man has been noted with the administration of inhibitors of MAO."
This or these very potent MAO-inhibiting thiamin metabolites are not fully created two hours after injection, but gradually build up over a day or two or so:
"rats given 70 mg of thiamine per kg subcutaneously, and sacrificed after 2 hr, when thiamine pyrosphosphate levels in liver are elevated, showed no inhibition of the MAO activity of liver, brain, and intestine, as compared with untreated controls. However, this does not constitute a refutation of the proposed theory, if the rate of formation of the postulated thiamine metabolite proceeds maximally with the amount of thiamine provided by a normal diet."
"Although in higher animals most of the thiamine which is absorbed is excreted unchanged, the fate of the thiamine which is degraded is largely unknown."
"This action of thiamine is unrelated to its properties as a coenzyme.[4]"
links??
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Thanks @Ecstatic_Hamster, yeah iv been feeling for a while that (impact of intervention) x (time you spend doing it) = (the biggest health benefit), so small things done consistently and often can sometimes have a far bigger effect. I guess an added variable to this is timing, doing these things when you are most in need. The concept of increasing the tolerance of my central nervous system to co2 and thus my body adjusting by breathing less is very appealing, so the body is always ready to meet that need!
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@josh actually, I only use it to balance the glycine depletion nature of aspirin, which isn’t much (like half the volume of a given aspirin dose).
Other than this exception, I try to keep my amino sources as whole protein (like getting plenty of gelatin), as Ray was wary of isolated aminos. I have played with taurine too, with as little as I know about it, I’ve assumed avoidance doesn’t have to be a hard rule just something to be aware of, and researching side effects before messing with it.
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Thanks @LetTheRedeemed, yes i think your right that its probably a better bet to get a complete amino acid profile of gelatine. Recently iv also experimented with 1g of taurine twice a day with the hope to reduce morning adrenaline. I have also tried agmatine sulfate, which is meant to be an anti-adrenaline metabolite of l-arginine (thanks @Hans), but i do wonder if my high adrenaline is there in the morning because its meant to be. I think on waking i simply dont have the metabolic energy for the process of waking (warming the body up etc, as morning temps are still low), so the adrenaline is coming in to rescue the situation. I guess im artificially suppressing the adrenaline in the hope of being less reactive to stress, and start to make a positive cycle of healing the metabolism. A more direct route would be to ensure lower stress and more energy through the night. I think this is why evening co2 baths were so effective.
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@josh I still do use small amounts of glycine for the aspirin, tho.
Also, Peat mentioned agmatine to Danny (i’m sure we read about the same thing here, it was posted a week ago or so). It’s good and safe.
hope the taurine works out!
Getting squared away for using cynomel + cynoplus, and then after about 6 months on it, was what kicked my high waking adrenaline.
