P4 and DHEA in a 8:1 Ratio
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I recall a post by Haidut on his bodybuilder friends using an 8:1 or an 11:1 P4 and DHEA as a substitute to their Test routine. Has anyone tried this or replicated the results?
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Yes, I remember that he talked about the 8:1 P4:DHEA ratio in his Cortinon+ produt at the very beginning of Generative Energy #11.
He said something along the lines of "That ratio, administered orally 3x per day, with 5mg DHEA per dose really jacks up the testosterone levels in males"
Georgi went on to say that "Two of my bodybuilding friends say it works for them as well as their TRT", or something along those lines.
I think it's plausible, considering that there is scientific evidence that progesterone is a glucocorticoid antagonist, and is also an estrogen antagonist. Whenever the hypothalamus senses that estogen levels are low, it sends a signal to the pituitary gonadotrophs to signal the testicles to make more testosterone.
But who really knows if taking 120+ mg of progesterone per day is smart as a man.
I guess I can send him an email and hope he responds.
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@jamezb46 Do you think using this in conjunction with test or DHT would improve the effects while helping avoid side effects?
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@Sugarnotsnow
I don't think so unless you had a specific issue you were trying to address with it.
For example, high estrogen could potentially be addressed with P4 because it opposes estrogen, but the problem could also be solved by taking an aromatase inhibitor such as exemestane or androsterone.
@haidut posted a study on RP forum showing that P4 is androgenic. What the study showed is that castrated rats given progesterone has larger prostates and seminal vesicles than untreated castrated rats.
That study is important to put into context, however.
When the rats were castrated, they had much less androgens being produced (obviously), and therefore progesterone was able to grow their prostates due to its known agonism of AR.
P4 also opposes endogenous androgens by blocking their ability to bind to AR. So, in the context of an uncastrated rat, I'm not sure that the P4 would actually grow their prostate because it would stop the androgens that they are naturally producing from binding to AR in the prostate.
If anything, there would probably be a biphasic androgenic effect in uncastrated rats, where a low dose of P4 increases prostate growth, moderate dose shrinks it by opposing testosterone and DHT, and high doses grows it because even though the P4 blocks DHT and T, it has its own anabolic effects to the prostate which take over at a higher dose.
TLDR; I think you're better off using male androgens like testosterone, DHT, and synthetic ones like anavar, turinabol, and halotestin (If you can afford it) and use aromatase inhibitors like exemestane or androsterone as needed.
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@jamezb46 I think i saw you recommend using high doses of pregnenelone in conjunction with T as well?
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@Sugarnotsnow
Using exogenous P5 in a 10:1 ratio with exogenous T is a strategy @haidut outlined on the RP forum to maintain gonadal function while taking AAS.
From my current understanding and from the OP on the RP forum, it was Pregnenalone’s antagonism of Estrogen that prevented testicular atrophy. I don’t think that there was something unique about P5 itself that preserved gonadal weight and function, although I could be wrong.
If I am right, then using an aromatase inhibitor such as Exemestane or Androsterone should be just as effective.
I think the P5 was mentioned because it’s more accessible and is safe at high dosages (up to 10-15 grams per day). On top of that, Haidut mentioned a “synergy” between P5 and T. He speculated a daily dose of 25 mg T + 200-250 mg P5 could be as effective as 100mg per day of injectable T.
But who really knows if that’s correct in practice, but I will gladly experiment for the sake of the community. It’s about time that the bioenergetic community starts to take over the bodybuilding scene.
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@jamezb46 Thank you! Glad you are taking the role of experimenting for the benefit of all of us. I also hope the bioenergetic scene takes over body building. I hope your experiments go well!
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@Sugarnotsnow
Someone has to do it
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@jamezb46 If haidut replies please post his response here, im very interested about the 8:1 P4:DHEA.
I'd also like to know who these bodybuilders are and what they look like, since haidut's claims are quite far fetched i would say. Like im not saying he is lying but progesterone and DHEA replacing bodybuilder cycles is difficult to believe. -
He did reply (or at least someone at Idealabs)
I was assured that the presence of DHEA should mitigate and/or eliminate the libido decrease and penis numbness that some males report with P4 only.
As far as those two bodybuilders @haidut mentioned, they were injecting 100mg P4 and 10mg DHEA per day, which they claimed was superior to 50mg Test E per day and probably equivalent to 75 mg+ Test E per day.
They did not make any claims about oral administration with their product (dissolved in tocopherols) being comparable to the injections that the bodybuilders were doing, but I think we can read between the lines a bit and realize they do not want a lawsuit.
I'm currently in the process of going through the 20 page Cortinon thread on the RP forum. This could be very promising.
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@jamezb46
Ok, with injectable P4 and DHEA this makes way more sense. The combination bieng stronger that 350 Test and potentially equivalent to 500+ is insane actually, someone needs to try this and report back! But i wonder if it only works if you have built lots of muscle with androgens first or it can be just as anabolic. -
Well, remember for @haidut anabolic is really anti-catabolic.
So, P4 he considers to be anabolic because of its anti-cortisol properties.
I want to belive this, but I find it to be doubtful. If it is really correct that AAS work primiarily through anatagonism of GR, then why don't RU486 or Emodin or beta-lapochone or other cortisol blockers make people jacked? Maybe it is the "synergy" between anagonism of GR and agonism of AR that is the real key.
That is a line of thinking developed in some of Haidut's other threads on RP forum about, for example, combining progesterone and oxandrololne and the general outline of why the "dutchess coctail" is effective.
Yes I agree that this needs to be tried and replicated. From about an hour of looking over the Cortinon thread of RP forum, many users reported some issues with comparitvely quite low doses of Cortinon, in the range of 2-4 drops, which is only 6-12mg P4, which pails in comparison to the 120 mg countenanced above.
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@jamezb46 oxandralone shuts you down at any dose tho right?
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Not necessarily. At doses of about 10mg/day there was almost no shutdown.
Some other steroids such as tbol and dbol also have minimal shutdown at low doses. You could probably get away with running them at around 20 mg/day for 6 weeks and not have any shutdown. 6 weeks on, 2 weeks off. Then repeat.
That's roughly what the east german athletes did during the state planned doping.
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I never understood why pregnenolone doesn't substitute for progesterone since lots of it converts to progesterone.
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@jamezb46 I need to get lean i will do this.
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Ray thought that alot of the pregnenalone available as supplements was damaged in the production process. Apparently if you heat the P5 too high, estrogenic substances are generated. Ray thought that some of those were present in virutally all products available OTC.
That's why he likes the progesterone better.
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@jamezb46 said in P4 and DHEA in a 8:1 Ratio:
Ray thought that alot of the pregnenalone available as supplements was damaged in the production process. Apparently if you heat the P5 too high, estrogenic substances are generated. Ray thought that some of those were present in virutally all products available OTC.
That's why he likes the progesterone better.
That make sense. Lots of pharma companies make progesterone.
Amazon has one usp progesterone powder but I don't see any usp pregnenolone.
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Does anyone know if the ratio is the same using pregnenolone?
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@Insomniac No it's 1:1