So how much protein we trying to get for optimal muscle growth, while balancing health? General discussion
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There's a wide range of recommendations out there, and maybe what's best for muscle growth isn't the best for health, despite muscle being very important (especially in the elderly).
Let's assume we're talking about adults (primarily males) that regularly do resistance training / lift weights.
From the bodybuilding side of things, here's a few data points to consider:
- A common meta-analysis is cited by many in the science-based lifting community that 1.6g/kg/day is "optimal" - https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/52/6/376
- A more common 'bro' recommendation is to just get 1/g/lb (2.2g/kg)
- There's more recent evidence that even more may be beneficial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYAZdUP6dZQ (this states that up to 1.6g/kg is a great improvement over the RDA, but that you can get increased, though diminishing, returns up to 3.1g/kg)
- Lyle McDonald, a fairly legit strength and hypertrophy coach and author focusing on natural lifers, recommends towards the higher end as well (2.2 - 3.0g/kg), with some reasonable justifications, i.e. protein goes towards far more than just muscle - https://bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/protein-requirements-growth#Protein_Requirements_for_Athletes
- Some anecdotal datapoints, a lot of 'top youtube natural lifters' such as Alex Leonidas, Geoffrey Schofield, Natural Hypertrophy, Basement Bodybuilding, skew to the lower end at 1.6g/kg or even a bit less.
- Renowned bodybuilder and original thinker Mike Mentzer in general recommended '25% of calories to be from protein' which for most people would probably be somewhere around 0.8-1g/lb of protein/day. He also did some interesting math showing that if one wanted to build something like 20lbs of muscle in a year (that's a lot!), they'd only need to eat something like 10grams a day above their maintenance needs for it to add up, while staying at a slight calorie surplus.
- Most bodybuilders on anabolics almost always go higher than 1g/lb from what I've seen. Could it be that anabolics allows better utilization of protein so it isn't wasted? Could the fact that they don't need to rely on fats and carbs for hormone support also contribute to this?
From what I've heard and understood from the Peat world side of things, here's a few points:
- Peat himself has recommended at least 100g/day for adults - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygyxqxlx51U
- Danny Roddy posted what looks like a solid Peat-inspired day of eating, which someone in the comments worked out to be around 125g of protein at >3000cals, probably somewhere between 1.2-1.6g/kg for his size - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGEbaCiih5o
- @haidut has given recommendations (iirc) of anywhere from 1g/kg (yes, per kg) up to 2g/kg at the most for a serious bodybuilder. I recall him citing issues with excess ammonia from protein breakdown becoming a health concern. I'd be really interested to see where he recommends something specific for optimal muscle building, and/or citing studies showing excess protein leading to ammonia-related problems in humans, because I don't recall exactly, and haven't seen elsewhere problems to do with high protein intakes.
Here's one interview I had watched a while back that touched on some of these things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXbBUVPMj5E
(I need to get transcripts for a bunch of these interviews and throw em in a chatbot one day :))
So there's some info from different perspectives. I think the 'mean recommendation' to get solid results while erring on the side of safety is probably something like 1.6-1.8g/kg/day. This isn't even discussing the primary sources that go into most people's bodybuilding diets, which I reckon are chicken breast, whey, and some eggs and red meat mixed in.
What do you guys think, any more info/research suggesting that extra protein is wasted past a certain point, or even harmful? To be honest I really haven't seen any solid research to indicate that very high (>1g/lb) protein diets are harmful in humans, unless we are talking about pure keto or other silliness which neglects critical nutrients.
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extra protein might be "wasted" as in some goes down less favourable pathway to get oxidized for energy but ive seen up to 55g for natties per meal still continues stimulating muscle synthesis above lower amounts . solid foods not liquids like whey because slower digestion of whole food releases aminos slower.
also to lessen wastage higher mineral intake is needed to utilize the extra protein intake. and to lessen byproducts from bacteria probably with antimicrobial food combinations. phosphorus is one of the necessary minerals for higher protein utilization. yes... the ebil phosphorus..
I feel good with 55g meal (40g from meats + 15g collagen) 3-4x a day but the problem becomes unfavourable bacteria being fed if the microbiome isn't top notch. peaters ignore microbiome. ive seen the posts about how all bacteria are potentially harmful even the 'good' ones but the reality is a totally sterile gut is probably worse because then one has less resilience to other pathogens we come across in the wild
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@SpaceManJim I've only seen vegans debunk high protein narratives. This one packs a lot of studies into his youtube vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKLkHbDy8rc
mother's milk is only 5% protein
The only risk to high protein that I know of is kidney damage in the context of impaired kidney function and many have kidney disease without knowing it.
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@SpaceManJim, I believe it comes down to personal context. Take me, for instance. One would think given my small size (99 lb at 5’2”) and relatively sedentary lifestyle that I wouldn’t need nearly as much protein as a large male who lifts weights and/or does hard, manual labor and yet I do—I average just as much protein as my brother who is 200 lb at 6’4”. When I don’t get enough, my blood pressure, temps and pulse rate tank, my muscles atrophy, I lose hair and bone density, and my blood work shows a protein deficiency, something the vegan community in particular claims is impossible for someone who consumes adequate calories (I average 2,500+ daily). Anyhow, all that to say, your body will most likely let you know what a good amount of protein is for you, and which proteins treat you best, if you pay attention to it.
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@SpaceManJim 1g per kg of body weight is a good amount in my experience. Too much protein has negative effects on my temps and sleep. Too little (<50g) causes muscle loss and lethargy. Right mow averaging 75-80g.
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*) In Short
RDA: 0.8 g
Sweet spot: 1.2 – 1.6 g
To build muscles: 1.6 – 2.4 g
Source myprotein.com
Note 1: Masterjohn advices to mind B5, B6 B8 (biotin) + molybdenum (but mind excess) on high protein diet. => Youtube: The Three Nutrients You Need More of on a High-Protein Diet + masterjohn.
Note 2: HDP (PLP) 1.58 mg of B6 per 100 grams of protein per day.
Note 3: We should balance methionine with glycine.
