Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List

[Milk Destroyer]

hi learnedhelplessness

[alfredoolivas]

@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

@alfredoolivas So you lack the willpower and discipline to overcome your hunger during a cut and therefore need to take a novel big pharma drug? Got it.

Yeah? I am not trying to be stressed during my weight loss and during the time I try to maintain my weight loss?

The result is - I look great - feel great - and have no side effects. All for 45 euros a month. But maybe I should buy heavy metal laden DNP...

@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

You mean your experience with a weak or fake product? Try it again with cynomel if you dare. One study using metabolically-deranged mega fatties does not concretely

I gave you 2 studies and a meta-analysis, that share my experience?

I respond really well to thyroid, I get very good effects from thyroid such as dopmanigeric effects and improved energy. Hence why it is in S tier.

I am not taking in fake products or a "non responder" to thyroid, I just don't get the increase in heart beat.... which is pretty normal according to the 2 studies and the meta-analysis I showed you.

@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

Try it again with cynomel if you dare.

I have, and received the same results.... let me guess... the cynomel got damaged on the way to europe?

[alfredoolivas]

@samson said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

@alfredoolivas you are clearly heavily indoctrinated into the scientism of the medical industry,

Because I hold a single controversial opinion about a substance, I am indoctrinated?

In vivo and the gay science should be mandatory reading for this forum lol

So people should have to read selectively chosen science, to be a part of this forum, and anyone that goes against the grain a single time is medically indoctrinated?

Instead of continuing our conversation about the interesting selection of studies you gave me, you come out with this authoritarian comment

[alfredoolivas]

@Metabolist

"Heart rate decreased significantly after T3 infusion (63, 60–66 vs. 69, 60–76 beats per minute"
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/93/4/1351/2826632

"Triiodothyronine in patients with advanced heart failure. An intravenous bolus dose of triiodothyronine, with or without a 6- to 12-hour infusion (cumulative dose 0. 1 5 to 2.7 microg/kg...There was no significant change in heart rate or metabolic rate and there was minimal increase in core temperature"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9485134/

"Cardiac function as measured by LVEF, end-diastolic and end-systolic volumes and cardiac output did not change during T3-treatment and neither did the neurohormonal profile. There were no side-effects in terms of cardiac arrhythmias and no change in resting heart rate."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.12648

[Hando-Jin]

@alfredoolivas in my experience if thyroid is not curbing appetite (it should) then it's not working as well as it could. I think estrogen can be one of the great interferers and it's worth experimenting with the various estrogen antagonists or getting the type of tests done that idealabs offer, which might help shed light on things

[alfredoolivas]

@Hando-Jin thanks for sharing.

Thyroid doesn’t stimulate appetite for me and it might even lower appetite for me, if anything. But not significantly. I already am taking 50mg of exemestane a day, I like it.

Thyroid increases GLP-1, which is why maybe it lowers appetite.

[Metabolist]

@alfredoolivas Do whatever you want. Stack DNP, clenbuterol, orlistat, cloprostenol, or any other drug that you find positive studies on. Why not even bump your T3 dose up to 1mg a day since you don't believe it's cardiotoxic. Elite bodybuilders very rarely exceed 150mcg but they aren't nearly as advanced as you.

I really don't care what you do or think I just don't want anyone to believe it's OK to dose that high because you, an individual with apparent thyroid hormone resistance, posted the abstracts of a few studies and claimed to have done it without issue. There are a whole litany of side effects: tachycardia and palpitations, along with jitters and nervousness, are the most prominent. Hypertension, angina, muscle weakness, insomnia, diarrhea, sky high SHBG, and sweating are some others. Fortunately I don't think anyone with an intact sense of self-preservation is going to listen to you.

Since you put so much faith in studies, why don't you adopt the keto diet? Plenty of studies show its efficacy in appetite suppression and weight loss.

Wow, you're the Ray Peat subreddit mod? Lmao! Ray Peat would have spat out his coffee if he had heard someone was running a forum under his name promoting all the drugs you do.

One day you're going to look back with regret for putting all this shit in your body. I know you won't listen but my parting words of advice are to consider working with an endocrinologist that's willing to prescribe NDT.

Good luck

[Kvirion]

Let me be a peacemaker here

Both sides of the dispute in this thread are doing their best to prove their point honestly and diligently. Still, unfortunately, one side's arguments (I'm talking to you @alfredoolivas) are based on a deprecated limited paradigm or simply reductionism (AKA scientism or logical positivism).

However, Ray Peat's research was based on a different broader/deeper, i.e. holistic approach as described for example here https://raypeat2.com/articles/articles/adaptive-substance.shtml
Modern medicine is also starting to understand this fact/difference in its ways as described here https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3498395/

The current discourse on clinical medicine is dominated by a mechanistic, deterministic, and reductionist world view and has much to gain by embracing the concepts in complexity science (CS).

BTW holism = complexity (CS)

So guys, please first embrace the differences between your paradigms, then fight...

[alfredoolivas]

@Metabolist Yes I have moderated the subreddit for a year have and never seen someone so Authoritarian as you.

You: "Don't do semaglutide, even though you clearly stated only experience positive effects without any negatives, do T3 and testosterone!"

Me :"I have tried them, and had lack of results for weight loss (even though I have had clearly put them in S and A tier, as I had amazing results with them otherwise)."

You: "You aren't taking high enough dose or you are taking the wrong brand"

Me: "I have tried 4 different brands and doses up to 300mcg."

You: "Impossible! Your heart rate must be through the roof! Based on this SINGLE indicator (heart rate) I diagnose you THYROID RESISTANT"

Me:"My heart rate (90 - 100bpm), already high with or without thyroid, doesn't rise. Actually this is quite common, here is a meta analysis of 21 studies that showed this is common, even with high doses. Furthermore, here are a handful of individual studies that show this. (I don't state anywhere that it is not possible or common for heart rate to rise with thyroid)”.

You: "You don’t believe that the thyroid increases heart rate? You don’t believe in thyroiditis or any other side effects of thyroid issues? You don’t believe that tachycardia, palpitations, jitters, and nervousness are among the most prominent effects? Other symptoms include hypertension, angina, muscle weakness, insomnia, diarrhea, extremely high SHBG, and sweating.

You are still thyroid resistant, despite you telling me that thyroid works really well for you! Try Cynomel! Get NDT from an endocronoligist"

I have barely said your opinion is invalid, and have simply shared my own experience, opinion and evidence.

What do you do ? Start diagnosing me with conditions, accuse me of believing something that I never stated and have given me advice that I have already tried - but I am always doing something wrong, I am the issue, you give me more advice.

[alfredoolivas]

@Kvirion
We are talking about heart rates in response to thyroid medication… it doesn’t matter who’s holistic and who “believes in scientism”, we are taking about an extremely basic quantitative measurement, that anyone can test, and see how it changes to a medication. I never denied his opinion - I only said that my experience is common.

It’s actually quite funny: I make dozens of posts, about studies, proving and explaining the pro-metabolic theory of health, and I probably have shared close to 100 more studies in Reddit comment sections, and in DMs. These studies are rodent, cell and human studies.

And there are lots of other valuable researchers that share these studies too, and do the exact same thing. No one has EVER called me or these other researchers, followers of scientism.

But as soon as I speak positively about my response to semaglutide and say my heart rate doesn’t change on thyroid, whilst showing studies supporting this idea that this doesn’t happen to everyone, I get called a member of scientism.

There were 7 medications on this list, that I recommended SOLEY based off of personal experience. 7. None are patented. I clearly said the others had drawbacks that I had experienced, and I don’t recommend them.

Pure scientism huh?

[Metabolist]

@alfredoolivas Touched a nerve? You can do as you please with your body. I didn't diagnose you, I only said it appears you have thyroid hormone resistance if you think you need 300mcgs. It's not healthy and would put your blood levels of T3 far far beyond the upper end of normal.

I wrote what I did in the spirit of harm reduction. I think extreme doses of thyroid is ill-advised and potentially life threatening and I'm certain everyone here would agree that Dr. Peat would have opposed the idea.

I recommended an endo that's cool with NDT because the ones that aren't are usually only test tsh and prescribe synthroid. They might even prescribe ozempic so you wouldn't have to inject some sus product from China. I also think it's wise to consult with someone who has experience in the field and who can run blood tests and provide feedback if you're going to monkey around with hormones.

Again, best of luck

[Kvirion]

@alfredoolivas said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

There were 7 medications on this list, that I recommended SOLEY based off of personal experience. 7. None are patented. I clearly said the others had drawbacks that I had experienced, and I don’t recommend them.

If you don't have an in-depth systemic understanding of how those products work, your recommendation can be harmful to others.

Pure scientism huh?

I'm just asking you to look deeper/different and question your assumptions.

And with all the respect, you @alfredoolivas still seem to focus on a single or a few variables instead of looking at the whole equation/calculus.

So my suggestion is: to look at how to facilitate the organism's phase-shift to a new better dynamic homeostatic state, than wrongly seeing single "receptors" as linear levers.

Your view on semaglutide is missing the secondary/tertiary effects of what it is doing and what it is not doing.
(in for example comparison to thyroid hormones)

BTW you may want to better look from the perspectives like those:

Ray Peat’s approach distilled to the key core: “energy and structure are interdependent at every level”;

Health issues are not meant to be addressed directly. You heal by simply out-nourishing the issue. Until it feels like all aspects of your life are improving in unison, you are not adequately nourished. It should feel like nothing can break your stride. The bioenergetic symphony. ~@natelawrence_

Martin Picard: Pharma is about suppressing. Healing needs nourishing and stimulating the right processes. We need a new Healing Science to understand how and when to stimulate endogenous forces that will sustainably promote healing in each person…

[alfredoolivas]

@Kvirion Okay fair enough, that is a very good viewpoint, that I am actually a holder of.

It is what made me decide to take GLP-1 Agonists. Thousands of drugs and diets show the same benefits as semaglutide, but what made me choose semaglutide, is that I believe GLP-1 hormone fits into physiology, metabolism and stress, in a manner that aligns that with energy and structure.

Of course, writing about where the GLP-1 hormone fits into physiology, metabolism and stress, will take a whole thread to explain.

But lets not pretend that the other participants of this thread held this viewpoint towards any of the subjects more than me. Infact, this viewpoint towards health is extremely rare ANYWHERE on this forum, the other forum or Reddit. The fact that I am called out, out of the the thousands of other people is insane.

[alfredoolivas]

@alfredoolivas It is also what is stopping me from taking the other GLP-1 receptor agonists - the others agonise the GIP-1 and Glucagon receptor. If I am ever to express interest in these drugs, I need to understand where GIP-1 and glucagon fits in the picture of physiology, metabolism and stress, and how it relates to both energy and structure.

Infact. That is why I have never posted studies, on random molecules, supplements or drugs, that I have found. I want to know how their targets fit into this almost spiritual idea of health.

[samson]

@alfredoolivas I'm not saying that you dont have potentially valuable contributions to the metabolic approach to health. It's clear you are knowledgeable about granular aspects of biochem research. My point is that you are losing sight of the forest focusing on the trees. other users have already made this point, but it bears repeating. This is the entire point of abandoning the receptor theory of the cell.

even your point about me joking that certain books should be mandatory reading being labeled as "authoritarian" pretty perfectly exemplifies this tendency. Using definitions and minutia to obfuscate the whole is precisely the scientism I'm talking about.

wishing you good health!

[alfredoolivas]

@samson Can you give me an example of anyone apart from Peat, Roddy, Haidut or @Kvirion challenging "receptor theory of the cell"?

I am being genuine, apart from a single Reddit post from last year, and Haidut's explanation (back in the day), I have NEVER seen a user talk about a diet, substance or anything in a way that challenges "the receptor theory of the cell". @Kvirion has been the first to even mention this in over a year, at least in my experience.

Literally 20 posts have been made here with the words "receptor theory" in it.... it is therefore extremely rich for me to be called out by others for having a reductionist viewpoint, when litterally everyone is making the same mistake.

(I am not criticising these comments, rather the principles that you follow are hypocritical)

[sushi_is_cringe]

@alfredoolivas wait. you're the Irish guy? wtf
you sent me a pic of yourself shirtless and flexing on one of my accounts lolllllll

[sushi_is_cringe]

@alfredoolivas dude why tf are you on ozempic? am I reading this right? in the pic you sent to me you're literally shredded. you were literally posting cool stuff about how pro metabolism makes you empathetic with your college m8s last year, what has happened since then? and now on here you are larping as Mexican or something. dude what is going on

[sushi_is_cringe]

reminder to anyone reading this thread seeing glp-1 drugs being pushed, @alfredoolivas is literally cut and shredded af, in the pic he sent to me last year he literally looks like a college swimmer athlete with low bf

and he is on here posting studies about ozempic

this is probably a mentally ill person with body dysmorphia and now im suspicious of anything he is posting regarding knowledge and information

please clarify @alfredoolivas

[sushi_is_cringe]

bring the original learnedhelpnessback___ ... I miss him bros...