Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue
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@LucH said in Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue:
get rid of bacterial overgrowth
other than oregano oil which is really strong and might irritate the gut, a round of antibiotics ?
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@lykos said in Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue:
other than oregano oil which is really strong and might irritate the gut, a round of antibiotics ?
Maybe both but I won't give details now because you've got to do your homework ;).
Read the links I gave. You've got work for 2 days if you want to manage well / if you do not want to take the wrong road and exhaust the capacity of your body to recover. -
@LucH thanks for everything, gonna read it all.
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@LucH hey, although i know b1 is histamine liberator, i did some research and couldn't find any studies that prove that it increases histamine or blocks dao despite being mention in some of those websites you posted and my own experience, i did find a few studies that show the opposite that lower b1 status increases histamine in the brain and serotonin. how do we increase b1 for us with histamine issues, even b complex give me all issues because b1 in it.
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@lykos said in Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue:
i did some research and couldn't find any studies that prove
I know.
I didn’t find back the link of the study. So, I’ve proceeded differently, with Luc’s pendulum
Question to ChatGPT
Context:
Study warning against certain molecules (herbal medicine or foods). The details are not available. I couldn't find this link. No problem with the AE (adequate intake) / RDA relative to thiamine (B1), i.e., 1.2 mg. Nor even with a B50 complex if taken twice a week.
I know that thiamine is essential as a vitamin and enzyme cofactor in several situations, particularly in the communication between the brain and gut axis (vagal nerve).
So no need to warn me.
• Enzymatic Pathways and Bioenergetics (HD Vitamins and Co-factors + Mitochondrial Support)
• Microbiome-Brain Coordination (Gut Health and Absorption + Neurotransmitter Synthesis)Question
What could be the reason for the prohibition / warning against taking a high dose of thiamine (> 100 mg B1) as a course for a treatment, at a pharmacological dosage, passive assimilation, with occasional B2 intake, therefore not necessarily daily? A high intake of B1 will "consume" B2.Extrapolation (track to be confirmed):
Prerequisite: Metabolism functions erratically, whether at the thyroid, digestive, and / or brain levels.
Knowing that a significant and gradual passive intake is likely to reactivate certain metabolic processes in the event of deficiency (CFR Chandler Marrs, Elliot Overton, Antonio Constantine's, legacy, Derrick Lonsdale), according to a progressive protocol, what could be the reason / explanation for an excitation of mast cells or other cells involved in the production or release of histamine, in the event of a high dosage? I am aware that this is a hypothesis, therefore it must be confirmed by another route. No need for a warning.Short answer
The most plausible explanation is that high doses of B1 abruptly increase the activity of mitochondrial enzyme complexes and decarboxylation pathways, creating:
• an increased demand for B2 and NADPH,
• a transient redox imbalance,
• increased production of metabolites and biogenic amines,
• and rapid modulation of the neuro-immune axis (vagus nerve–mast cells).
These combined factors can trigger or amplify mast cell degranulation/histamine release in certain conditions.Detailed explanation
As described by Derrick Lonsdale and Chandler Marrs: In cases of latent deficiency, a high dose can "awaken" dormant metabolic pathways.
This "awakening" results in a relocation of metabolic resources, with short-term disharmony, which can manifest as:- Mast cell activation,
- Thyroid fluctuations,
- Symptoms of histamine intolerance.
Immuno-neuroendocrine activation (brain-gut-immunity axis)
• The vagus nerve is heavily involved in mast cell regulation.
• While thiamine abruptly improves nerve conduction and vagal bioenergetics, there may be a transient activation of the anti-inflammatory cholinergic loop, paradoxically perceived as mast cell stimulation (abrupt rebalancing of sympathetic/parasympathetic tone).
In conclusion (LucH): We first try to calm the excessive reaction (histamine), with a moderate intake of B1, accompanied by cofactors to facilitate enzymatic conversion. When the situation is under control, we can gradually increase the pharmacological dosage (HD B1), following a protocol if we go beyond 100 mg of thiamine. We adapt according to the feeling, knowing that we will have to learn to decode a healing crisis (Herxheimer crisis) from a counterproductive / inappropriate intake.
Figure: Effet de la thiamine en cas de surdosage (> 100 mg) : Effets sur les mastocytes (hypothèse)
=> Effect of thiamine when overdosing (> 100 mg): Effects on mast cells (hypothesis).
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@LucH Interesting, i got a similar answer from chatgpt, i played around with different dosages from 25mg-100mg hcl supplemented along with b2 50mg and p5p 10mg. They all cause me the same issues.
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@lykos, if you haven’t done so already, you may want to consider thyroid function as a potential contributing factor. Ray spoke about the thyroid’s role in copper metabolism and also, the immune system and allergies.
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@Jennifer I checked my thyroid before i tested any of the minerals and it was fine, soon i will test various b vitamins.
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@lykos, if you don’t mind sharing, was it via blood tests or did you use other diagnostics such as temps (including temps of extremities—feet, hands, nose and ears), pulse rate, achilles tendon reflex and evaporation rate/metabolic rate (total fluids consumed and eliminated via sweat vs urine in a 24 hour period)?
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blood tests
TSH t3 t4 -
@lykos said in Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue:
blood tests
TSH t3 t4Yes, but mind when the results of the blood test is borderline, don't trust it. Listen to your symptoms, at least 2 or 3 symptoms of a list (hypo-symptoms).
NB: Borderline
A thyroid test in the "low quarter" (or lower quarter) means that the result is in the lowest part of the normal range. (Gauss curb). -
@LucH i think all my problems started when i was exposed to mold for long time, i know mold tanks copper really fast but i probably have some dysbiosis or candida based alone from my gyms and rhinitis. Doctors suck here, trial and error with everything sadly when it comes to health.
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@lykos, what LucH said. Along with fatigue and poor copper metabolism, having low iron despite adequate intake is another sign of an under-active thyroid. Despite my intake of iron-rich foods like red meat and supplementing with food-based iron, my ferritin was down to 6 and didn’t budge until I started taking thyroid (Armour). I was also diagnosed with mold toxicity and gut dysbiosis (SIBO), which cleared up when I targeted my thyroid. To rule out your symptoms being thyroid related, if you haven’t done so already, you may find it useful to track your temps (including extremities) first thing in the morning, and before and 20–30 minutes after you eat, and also your pulse rate, for two weeks. And in case you haven’t read it, here is Ray Peat’s article on TSH, temperature, pulse rate, and other indicators in hypothyroidism:
