Why are you all so religious

[Kvirion]

@yerrag said in Why are you all so religious:

Along with reciprocated altruism goes the natural inclination for "tit for tat" as a moderating third rail against abuse of power, and the re-balancing of good and evil in this world.

Agreed. BTW Recently, I saw a good video about tit for tat history https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScpHTIi-kM

The natural world has this balance. Human society is so gamed that this balance is gone for good.

Yes, unfortunately...

[Tahodama]

I think 1) Anything related to self-improvement will naturally be assimilated into the Christian gospel/mythos of rising from a fallen state, or at least that's what I got when I saw a large amount of the high follower Peat accounts on Twitter were Christian, 2) Anything esoteric or mystic will attract the religious and superstitious, I need no more than to point to Landshark's account.

@CO3 I request citation on the catholics collaborating with the nazis, so I can uhh... attack them more effectively. Yeah. Or at least I had dealt with deranged natsocs who attacked catholics specifically because they opposed Hitler or abetted the jews in some way, so it's alien to see people say the opposite.

Regarding religion's practical use in health, I don't know why one would expect some correlation between one's understanding of ultimate truth and of their eternal destiny, with one's immediate and simple health. Christianity is foremost an otherwordly ideal, and immediate health is a secondary concern. It's the same reason Christians cuck on various eugenic imperatives so they can maintain moral integrity. Even evolutionary regress is not the greatest evil one can suffer.

But conversion can inadvertently cause health improvement, whether it be Buddhism or Christianity or whatever. Pointing out any group of disingenuous or lukewarm believers does nothing to falsify this, that's just human vice at play. And even without religion people will invent some abstract philosophical principle to move themselves in a good direction - that's the point of Nietzche's affirmations of life. "March of science"-esque atheism is only one type of secularity, and its ardent skepticism erodes even simple mystical beliefs about life and good action.

[yerrag]

@Kvirion Thanks for the links. Understanding tit for tat from the first link you sent is the perfect segue for the second link on game theory.

I think people can be less likely to use their bully pulpit when they and their audience understand how at times what is intrinsically evil can be a social good.

Sister Prejean of Dead Man Walking conversely is doing something intrinsically good while encouraging a social evil.

[CO3]

@Tahodama Collaboration was so widespread that it's slightly annoying for me to talk to Yanks who keep downplaying it.

The only place there were very few was the Soviet Union, but then we complain about 'the purges'.

The reason this is the narrative is because the Catholic church is a huge multinational corporation with lots of PR behind it. Just where I live, I don't even need to go more than 50 km off from WHERE I LIVE there was a giant political party based on Catholic Nazi collaboration. You ignorant yanks wouldn't ever know anything about Europe unless it is through the lens of propaganda, but most Europeans with even the slightest knowledge about the Nazi occupation know about Leon Degrelle. the leader of Rex.

GOOGLE THAT. LEARN SOMETHING FOR ONCE INSTEAD OF RELYING ON THIRD PARTY INFORMATION

just read. you fucking idiot.

[Tahodama]

Well, upon waking up and seeing this, I decided to drop my arrogant pretenses and educate myself. When a European speaks, I sit my yank ass down and LISTEN.

I've been reading for a few hours, which is obviously nothing conclusive, but I did want to note something not mentioned thus far, which is the 2020 vatican archives being unlocked.

Francis announced its opening in 2019 which finally began in 2020, but unfortunately [[[Covid-19]]] (I used brackets instead of parenthesis for a reason) halted the effort of a lot of historians to investigate all the letters that had been archived. I read that as a late as October 2023 that the investigation of all the thousands of letters is still ongoing, which is quite interesting.

There are many things in defense against the nazi allegations, like jews being hidden and all that, but I won't note those down since that's not the aim of the discussion, and the actions of lower-ranking clergy or laymen is nothing that can be levied for or against Rome as a whole.

There are the obvious things the holy see did, such as the 1933 concordat which was seen as fraternization and gave legitimacy to the nazi government, but it should be noted this was done to secure freedom of religion for Catholicism in Germany amidst the forecoming crackdowns by the NSDAP... after all, since the reformation, Catholic clergy and advocacy groups have been seen as parasitic to the host nation and its interests, so it would make sense that Pius XI would want to protect the Catholic diaspora in Germany, since they would get persecuted if Catholicism as a whole were to organize against the NSDAP... these efforts would be futile in the night of long knives, anyway. I don't blame them, Catholic bishops have always been seen as puppets of Rome so they would be obvious targets in nationalist uprisings (See: Gustav Vasa's quarrels with the pope upon his seizing power).

There are also strange reports of Catholic actors working to cover nazis during the post-war period, but this could be seen as works of mercy since they would obviously be executed... whether the actors wanted to protect their lives because they were opposed to the death penalty on principle or because they had sympathies are unknown to me.

There's also reports of Catholic Germans celebrating or recognizing Hitler's election, which is harmful inasmuch as they were giving legitimacy to his already-controversial ideas about race and the jews. This could be seen as some vain lip service to new regimes being established. Or not, I guess.

I think the most damning evidence is actually quite recent, which is pope Pius XII's shocking silence amidst the tragedies. The allies had asked him to give formal condemnations of the NSDAP, but at most he and the vatican would give vague condemnations of wartime atrocities in general, and wouldn't name religious or racial groups. This is a part of the vatican's policy of neutrality and diplomacy during times of war, which you see Francis trying to uphold even today with Israel-V-Palestine/Ukraine-V-Russia (to more or less success, depending on your opinions.) The issue is that when reports of the holocaust were clearly reaching Pius XII he still remained silent, and this culminated in a few nights later in the war when jews in Rome were rounded up and sent to concentration camps. Allegedly, some attempts were made to show that these jews were baptized and thus were no longer jews, but about ~1000 were still sent off and later killed. During the pope's meetings with the German ambassador, he never bothered to protest the killings.
There's the interpretation that Pius XII was afraid of nazi persecution, which hindered his efforts to save the jews. This is problematic, as the Catholic Church boasts about doing what's right without regard to its own safety (i.e., martyrdom mindset), so his timidity is abnormal. One can make the defense that he was acting in the interests of the Catholic faithful, which again would've been persecuted if he spoke too harshly against the NSDAP, thus saving lives in the process.
There's also the idea that he was willingly complicit in these killings... after all, Christian antisemitism was still fairly common back then, and Pius XII is known as one of the more chuddy incel popes (or at least, that's how SSPX radtrads portray him). So maybe he himself had some grudge against the jews and only stepped in when it became a moral issue?

In any case, every allegation I've mentioned thus far are crimes of omission, or complicity in the NSDAP's actions. But I haven't read anything for them actively supporting and abetting the NSDAP's actions - and most of the sources I was reading from were Jewish, and if I may inject my bias I don't think they would want to cover for the Catholic church.

I'll be honest, this Leon Degrelle figure doesn't convince me, at least far less than Pius XII's actions. He frankly just seems like a lolcow nobody loser. The Rexists were formed specifically because he got exiled from Belgium's Catholic party, and he went on to secure a single victory followed by numerous defeats and unpopularity - failed demonstrations, bleeding members, etc. He then simped for the NSDAP but to little avail, only securing funds here and there, and indifference everywhere else. When Germany occupied Belgium he didn't even get to lead his own auxiliary military. Instead he left the leadership of the Rexists to another person while he fought in the war as a private for some time, only getting promoted (and injured) later. He only gained notoriety among the nazi higherups in the last 2-3 years of the war. To top it all off, he got excommunicated by the bishop of Namur after wearing his SS uniform to mass and getting into a fight with the priest. This lore just sounds like some altright neonazi retard getting himself into trouble rather than some dark collaborator with the Catholic church.
At its most damning, he and the rexists were just some rogue group of Catholic chuds who got constantly suppressed by ecclesial authority. To say that this is evidence of Catholic involvement with the nazis (which, I admit, is not exactly what you said) is like saying the Catholic church is collaborating with the US republican party because the guys who run catholicanswers.com decided to use their resources to turn it into a pro-republican platform.

That's all I have to write down. I'm sure, and I say this unironically, that everything I just wrote is probably littered with inaccuracies, exaggerations, misinterpretations, or outright false claims from certain actors. But that's what you get with 3 hours of research, I guess. In any case it seems the Catholic church definitely had some suspicious behavior, definitely in the lower rungs of the Church spreadout through Europe, and allegedly had some suspicious behavior in the higher rungs of the church. And the higher rungs of the church perhaps bear some responsibility for inaction, but I don't see anything which paints the vatican as being some nazi-compromised institution which positively contributed to the holocaust (which again, I admit, is not precisely what you claimed).

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that during this period a good amount of Christians were willing to compromise with the NSDAP as a lesser of two evils against atheistic communism. Although to what extent Catholics and the vatican shared this sentiment is not quantified.

fin.

[peatyourmeat]

i hate NWO
i hate the emperor in rome
i hate all his cringe larp secret orders

[Tahodama]

@peatyourmeat I find claims that the vatican is infiltrated by freemasons more credible, as boomerish as those theories are. The pope himself is a jesuit, which is a very sus institution in the recent decades.

[Tahodama]

Frankly I'm amazed no one's mentioned the elephant in the room, which is that high metabolism individuals will feel strained from only 1 meal and 2 snacks per day during fasting periods, and how little Catholic authorities will do to accommodate this.

[peatyourmeat]

@Tahodama haven't looked into it but the impression i got is that its a 50k+ yrs old reptilian cult that's being infiltrated by weird LGBT supporting NWO

i think they probably have some exotic/magic tech but not that much compared to the bigger organizations

[yerrag]

@Tahodama said in Why are you all so religious:

Frankly I'm amazed no one's mentioned the elephant in the room, which is that high metabolism individuals will feel strained from only 1 meal and 2 snacks per day during fasting periods, and how little Catholic authorities will do to accommodate this.

I have my doubts about the veracity of recent history of Hitler and Nationalist Socialists vs. Jewish worldwide elites and the Vatican, but I wont go into them as it's a lot of he said she said involved.

But more about high metabolism individuals. It's your lack of understanding of optimal metabolism. Yes, it is high metabolism but thwt doesn't equate to becoming hungry during fasting. Hunger is about being low in blood sugar. With optimal sugar metabolism, sugar is well absorbed and metabolized such that high blood sugar is avoided (except after a meal, which the body allows for thru the action of incretins) and a strong insulin reaction is avoided. Strong insulin reaction causes blood sugar to drop too quickly (as liver converts sugar to fat) to cause blood sugar to drop to hypoglycemic levels. At this point the liver and thyroid's supply of sugar is interrupted, and the sugar metabolism and energy production screeches to a halt, however temporary that may seem to be. It's like a factory that stops humming as it undergoes a shutdown. To restart production, some delay is involved and output of widgets is interrupted, just as in the body the outout of energy is interrupted. Hunger, lowered immunity, susceptibility to allergies- are just few of the consequences. This condition is worsened when the liver has low or no glycogen stores for adrenaline to signal the liver to convert glycogen to blood sugar. And even worse, when the adrenals cannot produce cortisol to convert muscle to blood sugar, especially during extended fasts.

So, no, high metabolism individuals (always where sugar metabolism is optimal, as understood correctly) can weather fasts with no problem at all.

[Tahodama]

That's actually pretty fascinating, and good to know. Now I just need to convince devout faithful types that ice cream is perfectly within the penitential spirit of fasting...

[yerrag]

@Tahodama
Especially fishy ice cream lol