Figuring out digestive issues
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@NotShanalotte That's an interesting take. About how much fluids a day do you go for, on average? Do you drink far beyond your thirst? I haven't made any serious attempt to increase fluids, as I'm rarely thirsty and then with the whole waterlogging idea, but maybe it's worth a go.
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@chosroes I have upwards to 2 liters a day but part of that is with salt in drinks (400-800mg), juices, and full-fat dairy. I also salt my food quite a bit. If I over do the salt or feel over-full (gassy) I'll have water or sparkling water, usually half a liter in the evening.
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Any advice from cascara users on what seems to work for you? Using it regularly, or as needed? Was thinking I might go for a once-a-day, and give it a chance to work for at least a week or two if I were to try it again.
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@chosroes Some remarks...
greens (spinach, broccoli, and such)
They may lower your thyroid levels
1/2L of milk provides not enough calcium
Cascara contains emodin which lowers cortisol and estrogen and also increases dopamine a bit as a rather weak MAO-B inhibitor. Emodin has a long half-lifetime: 50 hours
Again, for whatever reason, my stomach seems to affect my hormones, and I've been getting some serious antiandrogenic effects since then.
There is a strong gut-brain connection. Issues in the gut may increase prolactin which lowers androgens...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3214685/ -
@Kvirion Thanks, that's an interesting case report.
In my case, I'm sure there's systemic hormonal things going wrong when my gut is struggling, but often there seems to be a very direct almost physical effect. Like, symptoms can shift with bowel movements. As if the stuff itself is carrying something or causing an inflammatory reaction as it's passing through.
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@chosroes said in Figuring out digestive issues:
@Kvirion Thanks, that's an interesting case report.
In my case, I'm sure there's systemic hormonal things going wrong when my gut is struggling, but often there seems to be a very direct almost physical effect. Like, symptoms can shift with bowel movements. As if the stuff itself is carrying something or causing an inflammatory reaction as it's passing through.
You're being perceptive, i would follow that but not to the point of causing excess worry. I meant to comment earlier on the carrot salad, things may have been worse without it. Now for some spitballing, please pardon if some ideas have been mentioned already:
Have you tried Taurine yet, and by extension, Tudca? Both do a lot of work down there and elsewhere.
I know some have tried activated charcoal with similar symptoms, and i do recall some experiencing relief upon first or second dose.
Microdosing magnesium multiple times a day in case you have retention issues. I've tried multiple forms on a steady basis, the ones that brought the effects i was looking for are Mag-Hydroxide and Mag-Sulfate USP grade. Care must be taken with the Sulfate form for multiple reasons therefore i rarely recommend it, and again i'm referring to microdosing. Mag retention issues can take many months to resolve but you'll be given clues when it is. It also greatly assists with chronic hard stools and regular use may even "cure" it but there's slightly more involved, other minerals etc.
Vit-B1 also does much work down there, and elsewhere of course. The HCL version is excellent but has poor absorbability, either more may be needed or splitting the dose could help. Watch the filler ingredients.
Aspirin for many many things including digestive and hormones. Seems to help with wheat/gluten from what i've read and experienced. Maybe one a day or 1/2 twice a day for those just starting. And again note the filler ingredients, cornstarch only is ideal. The cornstarch can be resolved by mixing in a cup of water, the aspirin portion dissolves quickly and the cornstarch settles at the bottom for disposal.
There's more but this is what comes to mind atm.
Edit: and as Kviron noted, keep an eye on the individual foods and supplements you're taking. They can either be a cause or simply make things worse. Def experiment.
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@BioEclectic Thanks for this, I have had run-ins with some of those things at least a few times over these years.
As an aside, despite this being a gut-focused thread, I still think that my problems must be systemic to some degree. It's been warm here recently, and I've been out in the sun, but it has left me feeling worse. Return of some old CFS-like symptoms, I struggle to socialize and focus, libido is gone again, mood is kind of souring, etc. Thankfully not nearly as bad as it used to be, no dizziness and feeling like I have to take a nap midday, or such. I try to drink and eat sufficiently but I basically have no thirst or hunger cues, which is crazy, but it's been that way for years.
This is why I've been leaning toward things that could have a more broad, "tonic" effect, since it feels I should be tackling all this on some kind of broader level. I used progesterone last year for example, off and on during spring and summer, and although that was a bit rocky it seems to have been a net positive, that's when my body composition and fatigue started changing for the better. Cascara also kind of fits into that kind of idea, especially if the gut situation is a major contributor to the general situation. Bad or unhelpful experiences with most things I've tried has left me using only Haidut's vitamin E, and small doses of vitamin B1 for about a year now.
Anyway - yes I've tried most of those things at some point, and am wary of excipients and more "unnatural" isolated minerals and such. If I had more of a clue what is causing my problems I'd probably feel more willing to try stuff, this shooting in the dark thing is difficult to navigate. Magnesium sounds harmless enough, there's sulfate and hydroxide powder available for purchase near me. I assume you prefer liquid forms?
I think the next thing will be trying cascara again, not being a baby about it and sticking with a regular dose for a while. Maybe progesterone at some point but I'm still skittish.
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@chosroes
The Mag-Hydroxide i take is in liquid form as milk of magnesia and i'll take 2-3 ml with water once or twice a day but just a few days a week. The Mag-Sulfate is in crystal form as epsom salt USP and a tiny pinch is included in all of my coffees and a small amount in my weekly juice gallon (microdosing and it works very well for me). Loose stool is simply a sign for me to reduce dose or frequency but am pretty honed in.I'll drop back in again to check progress and if i feel i have anything to add. Wishing you luck with your efforts.
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@BioEclectic said in Figuring out digestive issues:
I know some have tried activated charcoal with similar symptoms, and i do recall some experiencing relief upon first or second dose.
Yeah, at one point in my life, before I discovered Ray Peat's principles, activated charcoal was my only source of physical and mental relief from digestive issues (IBS).
Activated charcoal is great - it lowers endotoxins and serotonin, etc.
Mainstream medicine claims that the cause of this chronic low-grade inflammatory reaction is unknown, despite the well-known role PUFA plays as a precursor of the most important inflammatory mediators (prostaglandins and leukotrienes). The study below now adds chronic stress and the mitochondrial damage it causes, as a major driver of the chronic inflammatory reaction. Now, while the popular press article does not make any mention of it, the actual study demonstrates that the inflammatory cascade starts with endotoxin (LPS) and involves increased choline uptake by the cells. Blocking endotoxin effects (through TLR4) or choline uptake abrogated the inflammatory response/cascade. Another possible approach is the administration of lithium or sodium, both of which can trigger mitophagy in weakened/damaged mitochondria.
Some natural TLR4 antagonists include niacinamide, vitamin A/D, emodin, progesterone/pregnenolone, as well as direct endotoxin detox agents such as activated charcoal and insoluble fiber. ~haidut -
@BioEclectic The magnesium thing does sound conservative and reasonable enough to try, and scoring a USP sulfate doesn't look too difficult, thanks again!
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Log entry. Had another go with cascara for a week, EOD, after a 2 week break. No direct problems from using it, but recently I've continued to feel generally worse physically and mentally, drained and lethargic. Unsure if cascara was contributing, so I stopped again. When I was just about to restart it, I really enjoyed the smell and taste of it, less so at the end. Maybe craving it can guide use.
My overall symptoms are a little worrying, and am thinking about seeing a doctor again. What's going on currently, besides the stomach back and forths - general fatigue, listlessness, no appetite as usual, difficulties socializing, eyelid twitching, difficulties waking up, apparently continuing weight loss. Slight muscle soreness sometimes. Things can vary somewhat from one day to the next, but seem to revert back to this baseline.
Recently, I've been pondering whether my symptoms could possibly be something diabetes-like. Reading things like this makes it seem at least plausible. I guess a similar situation could result from a chronic B1 deficiency.
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Another check-in. Things have happened recently that have made me shift my focus somewhat. I haven't used cascara for about a month, and bowel movements have mostly been moving along since then. At minimum once a day, but lately it's been more like 2 or 3, mostly earlier in the day.
A stupid thing happened recently, which has made me consider whether some kind of hypogonadism may be a bigger issue for me than my stomach. As background, eight years ago, I did stupid things with androgens and gave myself bad side effects. Recovering from that took a few years, and I've never really felt completely back to normal since, although things have improved.
Anyway, the stupid thing that happened - recently I accidentally came into contact with some old androsterone residue when I was cleaning off another old bottle that had stood next to the androsterone. I had soap on my hands, and realizing the residue probably contained hormones, I washed it off right away. It was hard to guess, but I thought any hormone exposure from this would be very minimal. But, the past 2 weeks since it happened, I've felt some significant mental and physical changes, which can't be coincidental. More comfortable socially, more willing to work on things at moments where I would usually just slack off and do nothing. My bowel movements also improved, and I generally felt better, more care-free.
I wasn't sure if what I was experiencing was hormonal or not. After 2 weeks, the good things have now started to fade, I've started to become very fatigued, and I don't seem to be doing very well downstairs, so the previous experiences being due to some androgen boost is seeming more likely.
Hopefully things will normalize in a bit. I haven't had other suppression effects that I've had before, like breast itches and muscle aches, so there's that. It still is crazy to me how such a minimal exposure could have these effects, and I'd assume it means my testosterone situation hasn't been very good for a good while. Will get blood work soon. I'm not sure what I could be doing to improve my hormonal situation, and I've tried lots of things before, but if anyone has tips on this, do chime in.
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@chosroes said in Figuring out digestive issues:
stupid things with androgens
What stupid things did you do with androgens if i may ask?
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@edouard Sure, about 8 years ago I bought DHT powder off the internet and used it transdermally for a few days. I didn't really measure the doses, and got myself into a bad situation, shrinkage, bodily changes and whatnot, scary stuff. Tried to use it again a few weeks afterward, with the same effect. Also had some similar thing with androsterone not long afterward.
While I likely applied more than reasonably sized doses, probably 10 to a few ten milligrams at a time, I really didn't think the effects would be so severe and long-lasting. Might've been made worse on account of where I applied the stuff.
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Okay, I think I'm starting to do what the thread title says. Summer was good, I started using a few drops of Energin daily (the new one with fat-soluble B1) and had a really good stretch of about 1,5 months, haven't felt that good in years. About a week ago, stomach stuff returned. I first noticed something bad happening the day after having had oxtail for both lunch and dinner. The next day, I topped it off with sushi, with a good helping of wasabi and ginger. Bam, not long until I was dizzy, cold extremities, unable to focus, with an uncomfortable feeling in my upper left abdomen.
With my newfound clearer head, and this experience, all signs seem to point toward some kind of gastritis or stomach ulcer as the root issue.
All this being said, I wasn't able to find too much on concrete stuff on gastritis or stomach ulcers on the old forum, at least no direct comments from Ray.
What has worked for you guys? Avoiding excess acidity and irritants, eating a bland diet for a while looks like a common approach, which I've been doing mostly anyway, with these small trial runs of trying more exotic stuff that sometimes end up stinging. Skipping coffee too, and trying to keep the nicotine use down for a while. I'm also dissolving honey in a little hot water at morning and night on an empty stomach, seems to do something. I sure hope the Energin isn't contributing here, cause I've been feeling great at about 4-5 drops, but I don't really have any reason to think it is.
What else. Could do the endoscopy or maybe an H pylori test, but I don't know whether there's much to be gained, at least not from the endoscopy. I won't be taking any PPI anytime soon.
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@chosroes Not here to help but this summer I started to experiment with PureBulk B1 HCL (along with Pure Encaps. B vits.). It was only 200-300mg/day and after a few days I had some bad gastritis. I don't know if it's linked with that though, because I also tried to incorporante some aspirin at the same time
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@chosroes How much protein do you average? I notice my digestion is much better when replacing some protein with honey/fruit. I keep warmer this way too. Maybe replace muscle meats with gelatin or try putting gelatin in your coffee.
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Do not take b1 if you do not feel any effect or bad effect. If you need b1 you will feel good after consumption in the hours after. This is true for all consumption. Do not eat foods which make you feel bad. Do you know what foods you do not tolerate? For example oxalates, histamine, meat, milk, egg.
Do you still have pain left side of the body? Maybe this is a clue: bad kidney health?
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@edouard Thanks for chiming in! Did your issues resolve? Back when my problems started many years ago, besides the hormones I was using, I'd also been going pretty hard with aspirin.
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@Serotoninskeptic I average about 125-175 g mostly ground beef or cod daily, and about 3 eggs, which according to Cronometer is about 60 g protein. Then from other foods I'd guess maybe 10 g on top of that. How much are you getting, that you're comfortable with?
I don't do much fruit at all, but eat steamed broccoli and usually spinach every day. Potatoes. Didn't drink milk for about 1.5 months, to see if it would help with the constipation.
I'm a little wary of gelatin, my last flare of symptoms actually started after eating oxtail, although it's always hard to say what is really going on.
