Glucose loading cures everything?
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
My energy level has improved so for someone with CFS which I've had for decades, this is a good sign I think.
That’s awesome to hear! May I ask how much you’re taking and how you are dosing it? I’m exploring some different things myself. After a wee crash I started upping the dose, but now I’m exploring scaling back, as I had more stable energy when I took less.
When I felt my symptoms increase, which for me comes with my blood sugar dropping faster, I first tried the same dose (3 tbsp), but more often. Yesterday I started doing a tbsp every hour instead, which will land me back around the original dose altogether. So far it feels nice, I slept better - and woke up refreshed again! Are you waking up refreshed, @S-Holmes?
I think some people have mentioned it in this thread already, but what else are you taking, specifically to support the glucose loading? I take a normal dose of B1 in the morning, and salt and cream of tartar for potassium during the day, which all seems to be helpful.
I also take magnesium, and use oyster powder and liver capsules, because I have a hard time getting both of those things fresh. Most of this I was already taking. Curious to hear what others are taking, and how much!
@jjk_learning said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@gentlepotato That is very interesting. Is it the case that your levels hardly spike back on regular carbs too? Or is it only on this glucose protocol that the levels quickly go back to fasting levels or reactive hypo?
I never tested at home before I started the glucose, so I can’t say for sure. But I did a four hour glucose tolerance test in 2020, because I was certain something was off. They tested before I took the glucose, and then every hour. A similar thing happened; relatively normal levels (to low) for two hours and then it fell at some point before the third test was taken, which is what I thought it would show.
Because everything was inside the normal range my (then) GP concluded it was not an issue. Now that I know more about the metabolic system I understand the test results better, and the information was helpful when I started eating pro metabolic.
So I’m really not worried about the BG results, they show what I already knew. I am very curious what other people are finding though, if they are testing! When I found RP in 2021 I decided to avoid low blood sugar at all cost, and so I’ve used a lot of white sugar. Together with all the other markers I am using, monitoring BG levels is a tool I think can be helpful. It already has been; it was part of what made me think I should take glucose more often, but not as much. My plan when I get the continuous one is to explore the most beneficial sugar and carb intake atm, and explore what form(s) or what combinations works best for me right now. My glucose took some time in the mail, so the first week I just used more sucrose, and my sense is glucose overall works better for this purpose, for me, because it’s a monosaccharide. (Which makes sense if you read any research about neurological issues after TBI’s, but also other “glucose limiting events”, like viruses and vaccine injury, as there is an issue in the pathway that breaks down carbs.)
I just want to add here that as much as I appreciate Peat’s principles, I don’t think he understood chronic fatigue syndome (which is called ME in some countries, therefor often called ME/CFS in research etc). From what I understand he thought people were just hypothyroid, but the research is showing a much deeper dysregulation - and it makes sense to me that the usual hypothyroid interventions won’t necessarily be enough to reach homeostasis.
I have thought about eating pro metabolic as a very helpful and necessary “support wheel” for my body. Everywhere I have been able to I have supported, and so I have much fewer issues now. But it hasn’t solved the underlying metabolic issue, because I haven’t found a way to support the specific underlying issue. I think glucose loading can be that support wheel, and that this may heal the underlying problem.
If anyone is interested: ME/CFS research has been underfunded for years, however the mechanism is slowly being uncovered, and just this last week some research came out that talks about hypopituarism, low cortisol levels and hyperinsulinemia, after virus or vaccine; which sounds a lot like a virus/pathogen or vaccine being a glucose limiting event to me. In fact I suspect ME/CFS is a very extreme glucose limitation, and that having PEM (crashing) is in itself a glucose limiting event.
I’ve read Stephen’s book and so far I don’t have a sense he understands the underlying mechanism of glucose limiting events; however I’m not sure anyone truly does yet, and only very few people understand parts of it, or are researching it. But I still think he’s onto something using glucose instead of sucrose. All in all, my sense is that Ray Peat’s approach, research on neurological disorders, and Stephen’s approach seems to fit nicely together! I think following RP’s principles can heal lots of stuff in a body even with glucose limitations, and possibly may set you up for a smoother ride using glucose.
But the most important thing to me is how my body is reacting, and listening even more deeply to what my body says. For some other forms of sugar will be enough or even better, and for some of us glucose might be the missing piece. Since 2021 sugar has been a big part of my diet, and together with nutrient dense food, sugar has already helped heal my sleep, cycle, skin, pulse, BBT, mood, I maintain a nice weight (I was very underweight, so needed to gain, but after a while I wanted to loose a bit again), and according to my osteopath (a visceral one, who works on organs) my liver has healed since 20/21. My thyroid levels where sub optimal, primarily T3, and now they are all in range.
And yet my fatigue did not get better. I have lots of symptoms of hypopituitarism (mentioned in the research above). The first week, where I just had sucrose, I had more energy but it felt like my body was working very hard to break it down (though less hard than with polysaccharids, which is why I have used sucrose copious amounts). I think supplementing high dose of B1 alongside could have made a difference, but I honestly think switching to glucose is a better option.
With the first dose of glucose I felt a difference. It felt like two things in my brain was connecting, that hadn’t connected that way in years (maybe more than a decade). I feels like my brain is finally fuelled, and when I am resting, I am recovering. It’s a pretty absurd feeling, and it’s wild how fast it can change when I overdo activity (cognitive, as well as physical) or go without for too long - and how fast it can change back when I take an appropriate amount of glucose.
So far I’ve experienced deeper sleep and waking up refreshed (not waking up refreshed is criteria for ME/CFS). My circadian rhythm has gotten better as well, I finally feel tired at night. I’ve been measuring my pulse in the morning since ’21, and it also measures Sp%O2, which has mostly been below 95. Now it’s usually 98-99. I’ve also had more capacity, and even with more capacity I’ve experienced much less PEM (more symptoms after activity, which is the cardinal symptom of ME/CFS).
Yesterday I realized my hair is softer too, and I haven’t changed anything about my hair routine, but I’m gonna give it longer before I assume there’s a connection.
I’m excited to keep exploring, and grateful to have a community to explore alongside with. Keep sharing your explorations and revelations!
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@gentlepotato Great report! A lot of helpful info!
I seem to need less sleep, but it still takes a cup of coffee to get me going. Lately have been having an afternoon crash (retracing).and have to lie down. I just started taking 1 T of dextrose every hour. Too soon to know if it's making a difference.I take (too many) supplements. (I won't list them all here.) But with each dose of glucose I take a gram of C, 3 brewers yeast caps, and a bit of magnesium glycinate.
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@gentlepotato Thank you for sharing all this. What experience you have! I am glad you are finding such benefits from the glucose. Interestingly that previously your thyroid and liver healed, but your fatigue did not. It's very encouraging to hear that it is showing signs of improving on this glucose therapy.
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One thing that gives me pause is that this all rides on the word of Dr. Stephens (and those participating). And Stephens doesn't strike me as a bad guy, but I do wonder if he is naive in some ways. I forget which video I saw of him where he essentially says "There is no possible way glucose can be harmful to you".
While I can appreciate that perhaps he has seen some incredibly positive results, that is a very bold claim. Especially considering some reports I've seen from the relatively small number of accounts I'm following in regards to this protocol. (The most pertinent example is someone on RPF who is experiencing intense dental pain basically immediately upon beginning this protocol.)
All of that is to say: if, in my limited purview, I am seeing that report (and others of less significant harm/setbacks), how can Stephens say there is no way it can be harmful?
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@jjk_learning said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
One thing that gives me pause is that this all rides on the word of Dr. Stephens (and those participating). And Stephens doesn't strike me as a bad guy, but I do wonder if he is naive in some ways. I forget which video I saw of him where he essentially says "There is no possible way glucose can be harmful to you".
While I can appreciate that perhaps he has seen some incredibly positive results, that is a very bold claim. Especially considering some reports I've seen from the relatively small number of accounts I'm following in regards to this protocol. (The most pertinent example is someone on RPF who is experiencing intense dental pain basically immediately upon beginning this protocol.)
All of that is to say: if, in my limited purview, I am seeing that report (and others of less significant harm/setbacks), how can Stephens say there is no way it can be harmful?
I just essentially said the same thing on RFP, but what if our intense symptoms are simply due to a transient retracing of old symptoms? I'm just asking out loud, as I cannot say one way or the other. It definitely helps look at it with a glass half full approach (which I struggle with), but it also can be naive, as you point out. I have a phone call with Dr. Stephens today, and I am going to get his take. I too agree that it sounds awfully bold to claim that it all rides on this one simple sugar.
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@GlucoseOrBust Good luck on your phone call. And yes, I can see Stephens thinking very highly of this one simple sugar. Maybe rightfully so! But to say it cannot do harm... especially considering what we've just seen DanDare go through... that's where it doesn't add up (to me).
Again, best of luck; let us know how it goes.
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@GlucoseOrBust How did you get an appointment with him? I've been trying for 2 weeks. We exchanged a couple of short emails and now it's crickets. Following his offer of a consultation, I've sent 3 messages requesting first available date and time and have received no response.
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@S-Holmes Sent you a DM just now.
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I just got off the phone with Dr. Stephens. I mentioned my difficulties with the program thus far (I am about a month in and currently taking 16 Tbsp 3-4 times per day). He mentioned that I am a more challenging case (I've had several major concussions and many many lower grade concussions from high school football, etc). In addition to psychological traumas and other "events". Anyway, he says that more than half of those that he would consider to have serious glucose limitations will experience this symptom retracing as the brain wakes up to what has been going on subconsciously for however long. At this point, it now has the resources to address these issues, so you should not spend too much time experiencing the various "bumps and bruises". It all sounded very reasonable.
I went on to tell him again how skeptical part of me is with all of this still. I recommended to him to start accepting and even asking for testimonials from the biggest turnaround patients along with setting up an online forum of sorts for his active patients to communicate with each other to share experiences along the way. He would have to moderate to make sure people are following his suggested guidelines, etc to avoid people doing their own thing and not getting results. Anyway, he reminded me that he was a huge skeptic for the first 500 or so patients that he saw healed. He couldn't believe that a simple sugar was the only piece needed for the physical healing. He does say that some psychological reframing and is required once the glucose limitation is healed to rewire the belief systems to match the health of the physical brain. The negative beliefs need to be dissolved to allow for more "personal growth" beyond just feeling better.
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@GlucoseOrBust Wow! Any weight gain with that amount?
I think I'm going to be a difficult case as well, so please post your continued progress and challenges if you're able to. It's very helpful.
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Happy if my report can me helpful!
@GlucoseOrBust Great you were able to connect with him. Does anyone know, or did you by any chance ask him why he recommends dosing 4 times a day? I've seen him mention 5-6 as well, but why not every hour?
If you are a month in and at 16 tbsp x 3/4 you must have added more at a very higher rate? I did the same, and had taken 27 tbsp the day before yesterday. But what if it's the higher doses are making the symptoms worse? What's the reasoning behind needing more glucose, instead of more often?
The reason I switched to every hour is because I think the higher doses were making my hypoglycemia worse. I wanted to explore if I got better results with less. Today my blood sugar has been much more stable, with 14 tbsp spread out, and I feel much better.
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@gentlepotato You should really get his book on Amazon. It's like five bucks. He also has three video lectures you can find on YouTube. I don't think I could stick with this protocol without buying into a good amount of the theory behind it.
He mentions that you need a sufficient dose each time alert the brain that there is now sufficient glucose available to it. The smaller, more frequent doses do not have this same impact. It seems like almost everybody has stable blood sugars on the large doses after just a couple of days.
I escalated my doses early on before working with him. He was good with it, as I have had a lot of concussions and other "glucose limiting events" in my past.
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@GlucoseOrBust I was thinking that could be the issue with taking smaller more frequent doses. I'm going to go back on the higher doses, 4 times (or more) a day.
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@jjk_learning said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
And Stephens doesn't strike me as a bad guy, but I do wonder if he is naive in some ways.
I think he is and it may be the "therapy" keeping him there. I consider what he's doing to be palliative of sensation and not physiology. Unless this kind of dextrose dosing is bridging a gap, and a person gradually returns to more natural compositions of sugar. Which those on it should try to do. In my opinion.
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@S-Holmes No weight gain thus far. I am taking a small dose of Tirzepatide (GLP-1), so I can't tell if I would have gain a bit otherwise. He does say that many gain a smallish amount of weight at the higher doses (10-15 pounds), but it typically comes off easily after treatment. Some lose weight or stay the same, so it just depends though.
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The treatment lasts on average 6 months, after which time no supplemental dextrose is needed unless limitations occur in the future due to head injury or trauma, etc. Also, some take "maintenance doses" or as needed during periods of high stress, etc.
I don't understand how anyone could not be skeptical about this. He says he himself didn't believe what he was seeing for the first 500 patients or so. After he saw how everyone got better though, he could no longer ignore it.
I am far from the testimonial giving stage at this point. I am still skeptical, but I am skeptical about everything, and I know this can be a hinderance to growth also. I'm hoping others on here and RFP are willing to do the treatment as he outlines (dosing, frequency, etc.). It's not complicated, but it does take a bit of time (for most) to see results and obviously requires a bit of faith to get beyond oddity of it all.
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@ThinPicking If I'm not mistaken, his protocol is to do this for approximately six months and then return to a regular diet. But I'm not completely confident on that. And even for himself (not on the protocol), he generally talks favorably about consuming dextrose/Smarties, so that brings that into question.
I'm with you that the dextrose thing feels like "bridging a gap" but shouldn't be where one stays permanently.
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@GlucoseOrBust Thanks for sharing your experiences so we can all learn together. It certainly takes faith to go through such a strange (unnatural) protocol.
That said, despite its oddity, some of the testimonials and simple reasoning does resonate positively. I guess that's why people like you and I are dabbling with it.
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@GlucoseOrBust said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
He mentions that you need a sufficient dose each time alert the brain that there is now sufficient glucose available to it. The smaller, more frequent doses do not have this same impact. It seems like almost everybody has stable blood sugars on the large doses after just a couple of days.
How does he know that? Has he tested smaller, more frequent doses and landed on the bigger ones because of testing? Could what type of "primary" glucose limiting events one has affect this? I'm not against protocols, but I want to understand the reasoning.
I've read his book and seen the three lectures. (I'd love to read the more detailed/scientific book he mentions is coming, but I haven't been able to find that.) I still don't understand the logic that large doses infrequently are the only or best way to go. Sufficient doesn't equate large. (I'm someone who has had an enormous amount of glucose limiting events, but_so far_ I seem to do better on smaller and frequent doses.)
I'm not very invested in what anyone specifically end up doing, we're all free to go about this as we please of course
But I think in a forum like this, these are questions we should be asking, so that people who read this (now or later) think of having markers themselves: Do you keep an eye on your blood glucose levels? If not, how do you know your BG levels are good and how can you know your symptoms are retracting, and that it's not an unnecessary healing crisis? And do you have any other markers you're paying attention to, if not BG levels, to help you navigate what works or not?All this said: I'm not sceptical of glucose. I think it can be extraordinarily helpful. I did some quick research on hyperinsulinemia (which is mentioned in the link I shared yesterday) and turns out hyperinsuliemia in newborns is treated with high doses of glucose, for a few days. I think it's a great intervention for many of us. I'm just not sure why a protocol would be better to follow, rather than my own markers. And to figure out what suits me best I need to explore a bit.
Anyone who's followed RP for a while will probably be more experienced with markers than most of Stephen's patients. We may have an easier time noticing what works for us, and ability to tweak it so it works better.
