Glucose loading cures everything?
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@idealabsrat That's interstiting - high dose B1 thiamine is one approach in the ME/CFS world. Some people get much better from it, but it's a whole protocol and can be very expensive, and I found the protocol confusing. I think it's based on the idea that there is a low level of pyruvate dehydrogenase, and B1 is needed to create that - but from what I understand the low level of PDH is a former theory to the Itaconate Shunt hypothesis.
What is the thinking behind high B1 thiamine in the approach you mention? Can you share details?
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I have been reading here for some time, and just registered to write here. I've had dextrose as my main source of energy for 2,5 years, because I don't tolerate enough of any other carbs.
This summer I learned about the dextrose protocol and tried it. I got terrible blood sugar crashes.
Now I have found what works for me. I take one Tbsp at a time, and then I wait a few minutes before I take another Tbsp. Lately I've been taking 7 Tbsp during 30 minutes 3 times a day, before breakfast, lunch and dinner. I don't get blood sugar crashes now. -
@gentlepotato basically, thiamine deficiency is almost as prevalent as hypothyroidism, in the two are very much intertwined.
It's an enzyme transporter, responsible for multiple parts of the ETC, and whole host of things. It's very easily depleted by oxphos, and by metabolizing alcohol.
Thiamine is actually very cheap if you buy powder and put it in capsules. I use benfotiamine. At first I took a couple grams a day, and it took a week before it started to excrete in the urine.
Incidentally, high dose thiamine cured my "seasonal allergies" where I would wake up every day congested or only able to breath through one nostril.
@takethiamine on X has detailed threads about B1maxxing.
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Thanks for all the info, and I'll check out the profile.
@idealabsrat said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
At first I took a couple grams a day, and it took a week before it started to excrete in the urine.
What does that mean? Is that good or bad, and how do you know that's happening?
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@gentlepotato I was referring to just HOW deficient I was.
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@Lena that’s interesting, actually. Thank you.
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@Lena said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
I have been reading here for some time, and just registered to write here. I've had dextrose as my main source of energy for 2,5 years, because I don't tolerate enough of any other carbs.
This summer I learned about the dextrose protocol and tried it. I got terrible blood sugar crashes.
Now I have found what works for me. I take one Tbsp at a time, and then I wait a few minutes before I take another Tbsp. Lately I've been taking 7 Tbsp during 30 minutes 3 times a day, before breakfast, lunch and dinner. I don't get blood sugar crashes now.Thanks @Lena for sharing. That's so interesting.
As someone who has also experienced extreme blood sugar crashes on the glucose protocol, I'm curious to know more:- when you say you take 1 tablespoon at a time, I'm assuming you dissolve in water? I'm curious how much water/liquid per tablespoon?
- sorry for being pedantic, what is a "few" minutes, between tablespoons?
- what does your meals consist of? Macros and food types?
- has the volume of food changed on the dextrose protocol? I have found if I don't eat enough food with the Dextrose I experience hypo glycaemia.
- do you mind sharing age. I'm assuming you're female?
Thanks in advance!
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@idealabsrat thank you!
I'm going to try to check out thiamine.
I'm wondering how one determines that thiamine is being excreted in urine?
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@idealabsrat thanks for clarifying! Where do you buy the thiamine powder? Can you recommend a brand?
@marmalade_cat said
I'm wondering how one determines that thiamine is being excreted in urine?
Me too, wasn't able to find anything on this when I searched.
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@marmalade_cat said:
I'm wondering how one determines that thiamine is being excreted in urine?
I guess because thiamin has a very distinctive taste and smell?
The intramuscular route can be also dirt-cheap with 5-10 weeks of thiamin vials, syringes, needles, alcohol wipes going for $30, tops. What's really pricey is the oral benfothiamin form (or the Allithiamin/TTFD - glutathion needed to tackle the mercaptan group of this form).
But those forms are not neccessary as the same effects can be achieved by using four to five times as much ordinary Thiamin-HCl and every 5h in order to maintain maximum levels. There had been a global backlog for thiamin powder in recent years with really difficult availability. Don't know how that is going currently. I expect bulkpowders would carry thiamin-HCl in their store.
It's well worth looking into, imo. -
I’ve read through a copy of Dr David Stephens book recently And he suggested people land on a dose Between 40-80 Grams, 3 to 4 times a day, So between 160 and 320 grams Per day As a minimum and it can go much higher. This made me realise if I was going to do this I needed to vastly increase the amount of glucose I was taking each day.
I was trying to work out what feeling was aiming for when I knew I was at the correct dose. I’ve been exerting myself quite hard today, which caused my trigger happy adrenaline to start up with all the usual feelings of palpitations, but as per usual after I had finished exerting myself I got this 30 minutes of well-being and feeling really good. I thought, of course! This is the amount of glucose I need, I need the same amount of glucose as what my adrenaline produces in these moments of stress to start the feelings of well-being and ultimately endorphins. Although helpful, it also doesn’t make any sense for my glucose consumption to be Exactly the same amount throughout the day. It’s better to take glucose consistently throughout the day than not, but it feels ideally the amount of glucose should respond to the need of stressors and feeling To match the supply and demand. I’ve ended up dissolving 240 g of dextrose in a litre of milk to buffer it with the slightly. I keep it in a flask with me throughout the day and I’m going to try to intuitively drink the glucose in response to the stresses of the day. I think it’s may be worth upping the amount in the flask too!
Ultimately, I am hoping that this will achieve the affect that Dr David Stevens sees, with my brain cells becoming less resistant to glucose, Due to the lower levels of adrenaline needed, and therefore less lipolysis.
Also trying to combine thiamine, and co2 to create a virtuous spiral But early days with this!
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Believe me when I say, you do NOT want to to taste benfotiamine. I only made that mistake once. Put it in capsules (use gelatin capsules).
The smell is quite pungent, and is easily recognizable when excreted in the urine.
I use this
https://www.amazon.com/Benfotiamine-Powder-Vitamin-Thiamine-Grams/dp/B071W3BJPT
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@josh said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
I’ve read through a copy of Dr David Stephens book recently And he suggested people land on a dose Between 40-80 Grams, 3 to 4 times a day, So between 160 and 320 grams Per day As a minimum and it can go much higher. This made me realise if I was going to do this I needed to vastly increase the amount of glucose I was taking each day.
I was trying to work out what feeling was aiming for when I knew I was at the correct dose. I’ve been exerting myself quite hard today, which caused my trigger happy adrenaline to start up with all the usual feelings of palpitations, but as per usual after I had finished exerting myself I got this 30 minutes of well-being and feeling really good. I thought, of course! This is the amount of glucose I need, I need the same amount of glucose as what my adrenaline produces in these moments of stress to start the feelings of well-being and ultimately endorphins. Although helpful, it also doesn’t make any sense for my glucose consumption to be Exactly the same amount throughout the day. It’s better to take glucose consistently throughout the day than not, but it feels ideally the amount of glucose should respond to the need of stressors and feeling To match the supply and demand. I’ve ended up dissolving 240 g of dextrose in a litre of milk to buffer it with the slightly. I keep it in a flask with me throughout the day and I’m going to try to intuitively drink the glucose in response to the stresses of the day. I think it’s may be worth upping the amount in the flask too!
Ultimately, I am hoping that this will achieve the affect that Dr David Stevens sees, with my brain cells becoming less resistant to glucose, Due to the lower levels of adrenaline needed, and therefore less lipolysis.
Also trying to combine thiamine, and co2 to create a virtuous spiral But early days with this!
Dr. Stephens actually recommends doing this. He does it himself. He says that even those who are completely well should still take glucose during times of stress.
I asked him how much glucose he thought I might need to work up to based on my symptoms and he said probably 10 Tbsps per dose. I'm not there yet. Not sure if I can ever take that much at once. Dr. Mercola says to take glucose in smaller amounts, sipping throughout the day. I think just do whatever works for you.
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I think another mechanism that may be in play here, with Dr. Stephens' system, is suppression of hyperglycolysis. Which produces only pyruvate and a little CO2 and energy, and burdens the brain. The brain responds by diminishing consumption of glucose and switching partially to using glutamine. This is EXACTLY what happens with Warburg's "cancer field" idea.
I proposed this idea to ChatGPT
Potential Mechanisms for Glucose Loading to Work:
Potential Mechanisms for Glucose Loading to Work:• Enhancing Mitochondrial Function: By providing ample glucose, you could support mitochondrial oxidative metabolism by ensuring a steady supply of pyruvate to the Krebs cycle, increasing electron transport chain activity and ATP production.• Reducing Lactate Buildup: Slowing down glycolysis might reduce the accumulation of
lactate (which occurs when pyruvate is converted to lactate in
anaerobic glycolysis), which is often a hallmark of hyperglycolysis
in conditions like cancer or impaired mitochondrial function.• Rebalancing ATP Production: Encouraging ox-phos would lead to
more efficient ATP production (since oxidative phosphorylation
produces significantly more ATP per glucose molecule than
glycolysis) and may reduce the compensatory need for rapid
glycolysis in states of high energy demand.Caveats:
• Cancer Cells and Adaptation: In cancer, cells have adapted to rely on glycolysis due to changes in mitochondrial function or other oncogenic signaling. Glucose loading alone may not be enough to reverse these metabolic shifts. However, in non-cancerous hyperglycolytic states, it could potentially restore metabolic balance.• Tumor Environment: The tumor microenvironment, which
often includes hypoxia (low oxygen), favors glycolysis. Simply
providing more glucose may not necessarily shift cells back to
ox-phos in such environments without other interventions (e.g.,
improving oxygen availability or mitochondrial function).Conclusion:
While it is speculative, the concept of glucose loading could
theoretically help regulate metabolism by reducing hyperglycolysis and
encouraging oxidative phosphorylation, leading to increased CO₂
production and more efficient energy use. This could be beneficial in
certain cases of metabolic dysregulation, though in cancer cells, their
preference for glycolysis may make this strategy more complex. Further
research would be needed to confirm whether this approach is effective
across different conditions where hyperglycolysis occurs. -
@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
I think another mechanism that may be in play here, with Dr. Stephens' system, is suppression of hyperglycolysis. Which produces only pyruvate and a little CO2 and energy, and burdens the brain. The brain responds by diminishing consumption of glucose and switching partially to using glutamine. This is EXACTLY what happens with Warburg's "cancer field" idea.
I proposed this idea to ChatGPT
Potential Mechanisms for Glucose Loading to Work:
Potential Mechanisms for Glucose Loading to Work:• Enhancing Mitochondrial Function: By providing ample glucose,
you could support mitochondrial oxidative metabolism by ensuring a
steady supply of pyruvate to the Krebs cycle, increasing electron
transport chain activity and ATP production.• Reducing Lactate Buildup: Slowing down glycolysis might reduce the accumulation of
lactate (which occurs when pyruvate is converted to lactate in
anaerobic glycolysis), which is often a hallmark of hyperglycolysis
in conditions like cancer or impaired mitochondrial function.• Rebalancing ATP Production: Encouraging ox-phos would lead to
more efficient ATP production (since oxidative phosphorylation
produces significantly more ATP per glucose molecule than
glycolysis) and may reduce the compensatory need for rapid
glycolysis in states of high energy demand.Caveats:
• Cancer Cells and Adaptation: In cancer, cells have adapted to
rely on glycolysis due to changes in mitochondrial function or other
oncogenic signaling. Glucose loading alone may not be enough to
reverse these metabolic shifts. However, in non-cancerous
hyperglycolytic states, it could potentially restore metabolic
balance.• Tumor Environment: The tumor microenvironment, which
often includes hypoxia (low oxygen), favors glycolysis. Simply
providing more glucose may not necessarily shift cells back to
ox-phos in such environments without other interventions (e.g.,
improving oxygen availability or mitochondrial function).Conclusion:
While it is speculative, the concept of glucose loading could
theoretically help regulate metabolism by reducing hyperglycolysis and
encouraging oxidative phosphorylation, leading to increased CO₂
production and more efficient energy use. This could be beneficial in
certain cases of metabolic dysregulation, though in cancer cells, their
preference for glycolysis may make this strategy more complex. Further
research would be needed to confirm whether this approach is effective
across different conditions where hyperglycolysis occurs.🤯
So how does this (below) fit into this process?
"Several metabolic pathways for the supply of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) have been proposed; however, the major source of reducing power for ADP in cancer remains unclear. Although glycolysis is the source of ATP in tumors according to the Warburg effect, ATP levels do not differ between cancer cells grown in the presence and absence of glucose. Several theories have been proposed to explain the supply of ATP in cancer, including metabolic reprograming in the tumor microenvironment. However, these theories are based on the production of ATP by the TCA-OxPhos pathway, which is inconsistent with the Warburg effect. We found that blocking fatty acid oxidation (FAO) in the presence of glucose significantly decreased ATP production in various cancer cells. This suggests that cancer cells depend on fatty acids to produce ATP through FAO instead of glycolysis."
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@idealabsrat thanks!
@Ecstatic_Hamster How does that theory differ from the Itaconate shunt hypothesis? Seems to be very similar.
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Maybe someone can make this make sense. Is it sugar or fat that feeds cancer?
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its absolutely insane that some here take up to 320grams of dextrose per day. And everybody is asking what can I do for my blood sugar crashes
is here somebody who did this protocol for several months and is now completely off glucose? I think after months of glucose loading you will go into hypoglycemic hell and youre in a worser state than before the protocol. -
@marmalade_cat said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@Lena said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
I have been reading here for some time, and just registered to write here. I've had dextrose as my main source of energy for 2,5 years, because I don't tolerate enough of any other carbs.
This summer I learned about the dextrose protocol and tried it. I got terrible blood sugar crashes.
Now I have found what works for me. I take one Tbsp at a time, and then I wait a few minutes before I take another Tbsp. Lately I've been taking 7 Tbsp during 30 minutes 3 times a day, before breakfast, lunch and dinner. I don't get blood sugar crashes now.Thanks @Lena for sharing. That's so interesting.
As someone who has also experienced extreme blood sugar crashes on the glucose protocol, I'm curious to know more:- when you say you take 1 tablespoon at a time, I'm assuming you dissolve in water? I'm curious how much water/liquid per tablespoon?
- sorry for being pedantic, what is a "few" minutes, between tablespoons?
- what does your meals consist of? Macros and food types?
- has the volume of food changed on the dextrose protocol? I have found if I don't eat enough food with the Dextrose I experience hypo glycaemia.
- do you mind sharing age. I'm assuming you're female?
Thanks in advance!
I put 1 Tbsp in 80-100 ml water and drink immediately, stirring around while drinking or drinking through a straw. I prefer to not let it dissolve, both because I don't like the taste and because I get tartar on my teeth. I think it gets more sticky when it has dissolved.
Usually I wait 5 minutes between doses, but if I feel that I need it and tolerate it I sometimes wait only two minutes. If I feel that I have very high stress level I tolerate it much better. How well I tolerate it also depends on how much fat I have eaten. I tolerate it the best in the morning, before breakfast.
I eat what I for the moment can tolerate... Usually I add 2 Tbsp of olive oil to every meal, and lately I have started to add a little (less than a Tbsp) butter too. I don't tolerate starch, so not much carbs. Sometimes I take dextrose with my meals, but that causes greater risk I get reaction to the meal, so I try to avoid it. I eat meat, fish or some vegetarian protein like tofu or some protein powder that I tolerate. And some veggies.
When I tried the "real" dextrose protocol my appetite lessened so I couldn't eat as much, but with the dosages I take now I don't think so. I don't remember how it was before starting with dextrose, 2,5 years ago.
If I skip the olive oil I feel that I'm out of energy after maybe 2 hours.Yes, I'm female, 52 years.
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I have tried to spread it out during the day, like 1 Tbsp every hour. For me that doesn't work. It can cause a flare up of candida that I don't get if I take a large dose within 30 minutes. And I also feel that I get unstable energy. I get more long lasting energy if I take like 7 Tbsp within 30 minutes, and then enough olive oil with food. As long as I have well filled glycogen storage I can get energy from olive oil.
