Glucose loading cures everything?
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@Ecstatic_Hamster said:
P5P is all I recommend.
I'm also scrapping all supplement products with pyridoxine, which I had used or bookmarked, from future use to replace them with products which contain only P5P=PLP.
@S-Holmes said:
Do you know the range of dose required to heal the body from these stresses?
I'm sorry you had to live through such experiences. It really hurts just from reading about it.
In that pyrithioxine in Developmental dysphasia study above they used an enormous 12-15mg/kg or 200-250mg in 3-5 year old kids. A scaringly high dose.I've looked into treatments of inborn vitamin B6-dependent epilepsies because they go most in-depth with the clinical practicalities of vitamer B6 dosing.
Clinicians for those recommend equally high doses of between 10-50(at the very most!)mg/kg of either PLP or pyridoxine (PN).
Which is wild, as that would come to >840mg PLP daily for an 70kg adult. On the other hand they use to set an upper threshold of 200-300mg/daily for all - be they adults or lightweight infants.
That essentially breaks down the dosage question to empiric observation of the individual. It's being stressed to use as low a dose as needed for clearance of symptoms.
Given the absence of clearly distinguishable acute fits as a marker in non-epileptics, I suppose dosing PLP comes down to subjective intuition and feeling over the short and long term, as well as meeting recognition of possible adverse effects with an ensuing dose-reduction.I reckon that, ultimately, it's most important to go with steady, regular PLP supplementation. Similarly as with dextrose. Similarly as with oral thiamin.
Those epilepsy clinicians recommend 4-6x daily dosing. I.e. every 4-6 hours.
I think this seems very sensible. That matches up with what I saw in graphs of serum-concentration over time for PN, PL, PLP. It matches up with my own experiences of needing B6 several times daily irrespective of how high the single dose.To summarize my own experiences with pyridoxine are btw the following:
PN quickly shows initial benefits during the first 1-2 days. Then everything turns sour and even though some things like twitchings gradually improved over the course of months, in general PN feels like an uncomfortable trade-off and overall burden for me. Empirically, I agree with saying anything above c. 10mg PN per single dose becomes intolerable and reverses most benefits.What those clinicians for inborn B6 conditions also clearly stress is that PLP should preferably always be used, from the start and in general, because PLP is about equally inexpensive as PN and - irrespective of the different pharmacokinetics which apply to everyone "normal" - because of those genetic epilepsy conditions with inhibited conversion of PN->PLP.
They further acknowledge that there's no "pharmaceutical grade"/"pharmacopeia"/"USP" PLP, so "non-drug" chemical supplies or nutraceuticals must be used even for those patients with clearly diagnosed genetic causes. Which I'm finding strange and wrong, but unsurprising.I'm planning to take 25mg PLP 3-5x per day along with the dextrose. Which translates to 1-2mg PLP/kg. I'll need to find out which single dose feels good and then take that as regularly as possible.
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Has anyone read the new book? Wondering what it's about.
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@S-Holmes
Please try the P5P if you can and share your practical findings.
I've only been taking it for a couple of days. In the mornings I've now twice woken up almost kind of rested, stirring long-lost memories of how sleep and waking up should be and used to be in times over 20 years ago.
It's shows completely different effects than pyridoxine for me. I reckon 15-20mgs every 2-4 hours would be both enough and ideal.(From taking P5P, prepare for more regular/frequent glucose cravings and increased protein cravings and a maybe acute tension headaches from a new need for and tolerance of magnesium.)
(I feel it's important to strictly avoid any supplemental pyridoxine.) -
@CrumblingCookie said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes
Please try the P5P if you can and share your practical findings.
I've only been taking it for a couple of days. In the mornings I've now twice woken up almost kind of rested, stirring long-lost memories of how sleep and waking up should be and used to be in times over 20 years ago.
It's shows completely different effects than pyridoxine for me. I reckon 15-20mgs every 2-4 hours would be both enough and ideal.(From taking P5P, prepare for more regular/frequent glucose cravings and increased protein cravings and a maybe acute tension headaches from a new need for and tolerance of magnesium.)
(I feel it's important to strictly avoid any supplemental pyridoxine.)I just took a second dose. Nothing to report yet.
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It seems that you are mainly relying here on beautiful stories of a doctor who has no idea how the body works and mostly he was a little lucky to discover the wonders of sugar.
You went too far with the theories in my opinion.
I think it is nothing more than the difference between the combination with fructose can burden the liver and sucrose which is not sure what its breakdown can be in everyone's intestine.
Instead of trying to complete the logic of Ray Peat's research, you are dealing with a doctor who does not understand anything and looking for answers in irrelevant places.
Most of the answers to all your problems already exist in Ray Peat's research
You searched for a miracle cure and found yourself exerting yourself to the same extent as you would if you had invested in understanding bioenergetics in depth.
Experimenting and collecting evidence, cases and reactions is extremely important, but I would recommend continuing to try to build the logic according to the bioenergetic approach and not try to reinvent the wheel. It won't go well for sure...
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@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
Experimenting and collecting evidence, cases and reactions is extremely important, but I would recommend continuing to try to build the logic according to the bioenergetic approach and not try to reinvent the wheel. It won't go well for sure...
Well said. I think what all this thread so far has proven is has all along been implicitly stated in Peat's attitude towards sugar.
That hypoglycemia is much more stressful and dangerous than hyperglycemia.
That depriving the body of sugar is a sure way of keeping stem cells in the pancreas from differentiating into beta cells that produce insulin (and maybe glucagon).
That the brain and red blood cells are so much needing of sugar that being low on sugar easily leads to destruction of neurons and red blood cells, and yet doctors have no idea what they are bedeviling when they say sugar is bad.
OTOH, the body is not as much stressed from having high blood sugar because it has mechanisms or safety valves to deal with it such as in triggering insulin secretion to signal the liver to convert excess sugar to fats, as well as to inhibit metabolic processes such as lipolysis and proteolysis so as to keep the body from having to produce sugar where it's not needed nor from releasing fats to compete for substrates in metabolizing sugar for energy.
It also allows for the polyol pathway to convert glucose to fructose when the blood sugar level is very high, as the body has ways to metabolize fructose more readily than it allows for glucose.
When there is still very high blood sugar, sugar gets to be excreted in urine and this dumping of excess sugar in the urine at least keeps the body protected from runaway sugar levels.
Because of glucose being so bedeviled by stupid 'by the book's mainstream doctors hypnotized by medical schools on wrong narratives to the point of absurdity, even quack brain doctors such as Dr. Aymen can sell books to bestseller status on sugar being evil, even while all along nothing about the brain has changed. It has always been dependent on sugar to survive.
It is comical indeed that it has to take another brain doctor, Dr. Stephens, to come out with the 'discovery' that glucose is good, to such extent that it has become revolutionary to load on glucose.
Yet I can't help but stand in the background in disbelief while Dr. Stephens says that he is 100% successful with his glucose loading protocol. For sugar to be utilized, one needs oxygen to burn it. And not all people have what it takes to provide that oxygen to enable full mitochondrial respiration. Such as people having hypoxemia, or people having hypoxia due to poor tissue oxygenation due to low CO2 and high lactic acid.
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@yerrag Very true!
And despite this, I also think that this is not necessarily the most correct and safe way, for a person who is already in a state of fatty liver and cells that are not able to burn glucose efficiently, for example, to rely on the consumption of large amounts of sugar as a solution.
I think that a fatty liver for example, depending on the severity of the condition, can possibly even collapse if loaded with sweet fruits and sucrose.
Accurate use of T3 and a fatty liver cleansing protocol, with a safe transition towards increased consumption of simple sugars, while relying on something like white rice with coconut oil, this is part of many options to carry out the process more safely in my opinion.
Also things like raw carrot for bile acid toxins clearance and etc... Just an example of a more valid path. Not a complete one at all...
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@S-Holmes I still find it hard to believe that anyone needs an iodine supplement. If someone excessively avoids foods containing iodine, a very, very small supplement may be essential, just not in the amounts that people take.
We need very small amounts of iodine and excess iodine is more dangerous than iodine deficiency. Of course there are also components that harm the function of iodine in the body and should be avoided.
In my opinion, the positive effects of iodine supplementation are not necessarily a good sign...
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@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
containing
Can you provide research on the dangers of non-radioactive iodine? Have you read the paper I posted on the faulty tests and subsequent inaccurate conclusions drawn from those tests?
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@yerrag I think you haven't read the research provided by Dr Stephens. But you may find it interesting that when I told him I had gained weight on high doses of glucose he said my body wasn't handling the glucose properly. So I think he would agree with you, at least in part. I DO tend to have high lactic acid (fibromyalgia). I have cut back on glucose for now, but still using it in place of sugar (about 70 to 100 grams a day).
I do think I need to find a way to use glucose more efficiently. Being over 50 is a real game changer. I usually don't take health advice from young people who don't have the same challenges, but most people I know who are my age and older are struggling. My husband is the exception, but he has always been very healthy.
So in conclusion, I believe that glucose in the context of an already healthy liver and good metabolism is helpful. I haven't yet decided if it is helpful to me since I may not have experimented long enough (due to weight gain).
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
containing
Can you provide research on the dangers of non-radioactive iodine? Have you read the paper I posted on the faulty tests and subsequent inaccurate conclusions drawn from those tests?
I don't like "research war". A fundamental logical picture is required to understand the full picture.
This is beyond the Wolff-Chaikoff Effect, the potential to inhibit the TPO enzyme, the potential for inflammation, goiter and even cancer due to excess iodine.
Iodine is mainly relevant to the gland but not to other processes such as the conversion of T4 to T3 in the liver.
In most cases, problems with the gland itself exist in women and specifically in pregnant women, since the leading cause of damage to the gland is high estrogen and low progesterone. As well as intestinal problems that lead to endotoxin that can damage the gland, TSH which itself worsens the damage to the gland and more.
In my country, there is much less iodine in food and water and there is no obligation to add iodine to salt and water like in the USA.
I started fixing my body from half a foot in the grave with a temperature of 35 degrees and a heart rate of 47 and today 10 years later I am in better health than ever, I have never used iodine to improve the function of the gland and thyroid hormones.
I also don't eat high iodine content foods. I don't eat seafoods at all, only a little bit milk and no iodine salt.
I have no inflammation, my metabolic rate and thyroid hormones are optimal. I have stable energy every day all day, I have no sleep problems, I no longer have excess fat and I have no problems, even though my days are non-stop busy and I don't even exercise at all. My brain works maybe 10 times better than average in terms of speed, efficiency and clarity.
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@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
containing
Can you provide research on the dangers of non-radioactive iodine? Have you read the paper I posted on the faulty tests and subsequent inaccurate conclusions drawn from those tests?
I don't like "research war". A fundamental logical picture is required to understand the full picture.
This is beyond the Wolff-Chaikoff Effect, the potential to inhibit the TPO enzyme, the potential for inflammation, goiter and even cancer due to excess iodine.
Iodine is mainly relevant to the gland but not to other processes such as the conversion of T4 to T3 in the liver.
In most cases, problems with the gland itself exist in women and specifically in pregnant women, since the leading cause of damage to the gland is high estrogen and low progesterone. As well as intestinal problems that lead to endotoxin that can damage the gland, TSH which itself worsens the damage to the gland and more.
In my country, there is much less iodine in food and water and there is no obligation to add iodine to salt and water like in the USA.
I started fixing my body from half a foot in the grave with a temperature of 35 degrees and a heart rate of 47 and today 10 years later I am in better health than ever, I have never used iodine to improve the function of the gland and thyroid hormones.
Does your government add toxic fluoride to the water supply as it does in the US? Fluoride displaces iodine. Bromide is another chemical used in food preparation that will displace iodine.
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
containing
Can you provide research on the dangers of non-radioactive iodine? Have you read the paper I posted on the faulty tests and subsequent inaccurate conclusions drawn from those tests?
I don't like "research war". A fundamental logical picture is required to understand the full picture.
This is beyond the Wolff-Chaikoff Effect, the potential to inhibit the TPO enzyme, the potential for inflammation, goiter and even cancer due to excess iodine.
Iodine is mainly relevant to the gland but not to other processes such as the conversion of T4 to T3 in the liver.
In most cases, problems with the gland itself exist in women and specifically in pregnant women, since the leading cause of damage to the gland is high estrogen and low progesterone. As well as intestinal problems that lead to endotoxin that can damage the gland, TSH which itself worsens the damage to the gland and more.
In my country, there is much less iodine in food and water and there is no obligation to add iodine to salt and water like in the USA.
I started fixing my body from half a foot in the grave with a temperature of 35 degrees and a heart rate of 47 and today 10 years later I am in better health than ever, I have never used iodine to improve the function of the gland and thyroid hormones.
Does your government add toxic fluoride to the water supply as it does in the US? Fluoride displaces iodine. Bromide is another chemical used in food preparation that will displace iodine.
Definitely. I'm afraid that in Israel everything is worse than in the USA.
We also don't have even one usable dairy product here, or any grass fed meat.
Alternative medicine here focuses on iodine and avoiding substances like fluoride, because they simply don't understand how the body really works.
But why not stop drinking tap water??
I get over 3 liters of water from food and supplement between 1 and 5 glasses of mineral water a week.
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@sharko Are you under the age of 50?
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko Are you under the age of 50?
Yes. But I sped up the aging process for myself and was biologically probably over 80 before I hit 30.
And all the clients I help today to improve their metabolic rate, are 50-60+ years old.
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@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko Are you under the age of 50?
Yes. But I sped up the aging process for myself and was biologically probably over 80 before I hit 30.
And all the clients I help today to improve their metabolic rate, are 50-60+ years old.
I discovered Ray Peat 20 years ago. I have done everything...lots of milk,.OJ, thyroid (T3, NDT), avoided seed and nut oils all this time, but nothing ever brought my temperature up until I started taking glucose. My temperature is still doing well even though I've cut back on it. My husband's temps were even worse than mine, and for 20 years, eating and avoiding the same foods as me, still no progress. Glucose was the only thing that also brought his out of the 96's (all day) to consistent 98's. He never leaves the house without his bottle of glucose lemonade.
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko Are you under the age of 50?
Yes. But I sped up the aging process for myself and was biologically probably over 80 before I hit 30.
And all the clients I help today to improve their metabolic rate, are 50-60+ years old.
I discovered Ray Peat 20 years ago. I have done everything...lots of milk,.OJ, thyroid (T3, NDT), avoided seed and nut oils all this time, but nothing ever brought my temperature up until I started taking glucose. My temperature is still doing well even though I've cut back on it. My husband's temps were even worse than mine, and for 20 years, eating and avoiding the same foods as me, still no progress. Glucose was the only thing that also brought his out of the 96's (all day) to consistent 98's. He never leaves the house without his bottle of glucose lemonade.
First of all, this is amazing and happy to hear!
I was only exposed to him about 10 years ago, but I didn't save myself by applying Ray Peat's principles, I did it by learning how the systems work, how the situation can be changed with diet, lifestyle and especially synthetic substances, vitamins, Minerals, hormones and other special substances.
People get confused thinking that diet and lifestyle can be sufficient to repair decades of damage and while living under stress in a toxic environment in most cases.
I have played with my hormones, vitamins, minerals, neurotransmitters and more probably thousands of times to this day, to understand how things work precisely in the brain and the rest of the body.
The glucose thing is really something that allows us to understand the picture a little better and find more effective ways to get out of difficult situations. But there is no way that alone is enough.
Look at how the doctor and others who apply the protocol and present successes look like - a fat and not fit body does not show an optimal metabolism, no matter what they tell me, this cannot be the case and if the metabolism is not optimal - there are problems. We also need to know how to check temperature and pulse for it to be reliable. It's not necessarily that simple.
To reach such abilities, the genius Ray Peat is not enough, you also need a lot of effective and precise practice that can be learned from people like Georgy Dinkov and others.
By the way, people like to look at people who claim to understand how the body works and how to bring it to an optimal state. I also did it now in the message, but there is a small difference:
When the doctor says that all it takes to cure so many problems is glucose, then he has no excuse not to look optimal.
But it's different in the case of people like Ray and Georgy because they were experimenting all the time and didn't claim that no matter what their condition was, they could take more glucose and it would be fine.
All these people, use their brains non-stop on research and solving complex problems (the organ that consumes the most glucose in the body) and this accelerates the aging process, even if you manage to maintain it at the highest levels with precise additions - but in the case of the doctor this is not relevant, because he Says you only need an addition of glucose and everything works out...
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@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko Are you under the age of 50?
Yes. But I sped up the aging process for myself and was biologically probably over 80 before I hit 30.
And all the clients I help today to improve their metabolic rate, are 50-60+ years old.
I discovered Ray Peat 20 years ago. I have done everything...lots of milk,.OJ, thyroid (T3, NDT), avoided seed and nut oils all this time, but nothing ever brought my temperature up until I started taking glucose. My temperature is still doing well even though I've cut back on it. My husband's temps were even worse than mine, and for 20 years, eating and avoiding the same foods as me, still no progress. Glucose was the only thing that also brought his out of the 96's (all day) to consistent 98's. He never leaves the house without his bottle of glucose lemonade.
First of all, this is amazing and happy to hear!
I was only exposed to him about 10 years ago, but I didn't save myself by applying Ray Peat's principles, I did it by learning how the systems work, how the situation can be changed with diet, lifestyle and especially synthetic substances, vitamins, Minerals, hormones and other special substances.
People get confused thinking that diet and lifestyle can be sufficient to repair decades of damage and while living under stress in a toxic environment in most cases.
I have played with my hormones, vitamins, minerals, neurotransmitters and more probably thousands of times to this day, to understand how things work precisely in the brain and the rest of the body.
The glucose thing is really something that allows us to understand the picture a little better and find more effective ways to get out of difficult situations. But there is no way that alone is enough.
Look at how the doctor and others who apply the protocol and present successes look like - a fat and not fit body does not show an optimal metabolism, no matter what they tell me, this cannot be the case and if the metabolism is not optimal - there are problems. We also need to know how to check temperature and pulse for it to be reliable. It's not necessarily that simple.
To reach such abilities, the genius Ray Peat is not enough, you also need a lot of effective and precise practice that can be learned from people like Georgy Dinkov and others.
By the way, people like to look at people who claim to understand how the body works and how to bring it to an optimal state. I also did it now in the message, but there is a small difference:
When the doctor says that all it takes to cure so many problems is glucose, then he has no excuse not to look optimal.
But it's different in the case of people like Ray and Georgy because they were experimenting all the time and didn't claim that no matter what their condition was, they could take more glucose and it would be fine.
All these people, use their brains non-stop on research and solving complex problems (the organ that consumes the most glucose in the body) and this accelerates the aging process, even if you manage to maintain it at the highest levels with precise additions - but in the case of the doctor this is not relevant, because he Says you only need an addition of glucose and everything works out...
I think you misunderstand his work. He says you provide the macros first (mainly glucose and protein), and see where you are after the initial trial period. Then you can start adding whatever micro nutrients are needed, which some find are less than needed pre-glucose.
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@sharko Are you under the age of 50?
Yes. But I sped up the aging process for myself and was biologically probably over 80 before I hit 30.
And all the clients I help today to improve their metabolic rate, are 50-60+ years old.
I discovered Ray Peat 20 years ago. I have done everything...lots of milk,.OJ, thyroid (T3, NDT), avoided seed and nut oils all this time, but nothing ever brought my temperature up until I started taking glucose. My temperature is still doing well even though I've cut back on it. My husband's temps were even worse than mine, and for 20 years, eating and avoiding the same foods as me, still no progress. Glucose was the only thing that also brought his out of the 96's (all day) to consistent 98's. He never leaves the house without his bottle of glucose lemonade.
First of all, this is amazing and happy to hear!
I was only exposed to him about 10 years ago, but I didn't save myself by applying Ray Peat's principles, I did it by learning how the systems work, how the situation can be changed with diet, lifestyle and especially synthetic substances, vitamins, Minerals, hormones and other special substances.
People get confused thinking that diet and lifestyle can be sufficient to repair decades of damage and while living under stress in a toxic environment in most cases.
I have played with my hormones, vitamins, minerals, neurotransmitters and more probably thousands of times to this day, to understand how things work precisely in the brain and the rest of the body.
The glucose thing is really something that allows us to understand the picture a little better and find more effective ways to get out of difficult situations. But there is no way that alone is enough.
Look at how the doctor and others who apply the protocol and present successes look like - a fat and not fit body does not show an optimal metabolism, no matter what they tell me, this cannot be the case and if the metabolism is not optimal - there are problems. We also need to know how to check temperature and pulse for it to be reliable. It's not necessarily that simple.
To reach such abilities, the genius Ray Peat is not enough, you also need a lot of effective and precise practice that can be learned from people like Georgy Dinkov and others.
By the way, people like to look at people who claim to understand how the body works and how to bring it to an optimal state. I also did it now in the message, but there is a small difference:
When the doctor says that all it takes to cure so many problems is glucose, then he has no excuse not to look optimal.
But it's different in the case of people like Ray and Georgy because they were experimenting all the time and didn't claim that no matter what their condition was, they could take more glucose and it would be fine.
All these people, use their brains non-stop on research and solving complex problems (the organ that consumes the most glucose in the body) and this accelerates the aging process, even if you manage to maintain it at the highest levels with precise additions - but in the case of the doctor this is not relevant, because he Says you only need an addition of glucose and everything works out...
You misunderstand his work. He says you provide the macros first (mainly glucose and protein), and see where you are after the initial trial period. Then you can start adding whatever micro nutrients are needed, which some find are less than needed pre-glucose.
To be honest, I haven't delved into his work. I watched the first video of about two hours and realized that he discovered something amazing, but he has no idea how our bodies really work. And from that point, I found no sense in hearing his following theories about what is happening in the body. Only the evidence he accumulated could be interesting to advance the research, but I wouldn't trust them either. People like to exaggerate.
You know what's funny? It is known that diabetes can be treated with high sugar consumption, such as rice, even before the wasting disease was called diabetes...
It's all about wasting "disease"
He just took the glucose from the rice and separated the body from the brain. Genius
In the past people would mainly lose weight, nowadays due to pufa, estrogen, general diet and other factors, people with "wasting disease" can also gain weight.
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@sharko said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
It seems that you are mainly relying here on beautiful stories of a doctor who has no idea how the body works and mostly he was a little lucky to discover the wonders of sugar.
You went too far with the theories in my opinion.
I think it is nothing more than the difference between the combination with fructose can burden the liver and sucrose which is not sure what its breakdown can be in everyone's intestine.
Instead of trying to complete the logic of Ray Peat's research, you are dealing with a doctor who does not understand anything and looking for answers in irrelevant places.
Most of the answers to all your problems already exist in Ray Peat's research
You searched for a miracle cure and found yourself exerting yourself to the same extent as you would if you had invested in understanding bioenergetics in depth.
Experimenting and collecting evidence, cases and reactions is extremely important, but I would recommend continuing to try to build the logic according to the bioenergetic approach and not try to reinvent the wheel. It won't go well for sure...
Who are you addressing here? And have you read the entire thread? It's full of experimenting and collecting evidence, and building logic.
To me what you're saying comes across as unnecessarily rude. If you don't have an interest in glucose there are plenty other bioenergetic spaces where you can go play, where no one is talking about glucose.
