BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control"
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In another strike of openness to counterviews, the thread is now invisible to me, probably as a result of getting blocked by its creator. If I didn't have it linked elsewhere, I wouldn't be able to access it again. The discussions that appear are those that the originators allow them to.
I skimmed through the guy's article proposing the following antiviral arsenal:
- Riboflavin
- Sunlight
- Vitamin C
- Aspirin
The latter 3 are known to help and are widely promoted by other authors. I have some comments on the unique touch of his proposal: irradiated riboflavin.
He was conservative with the tone of this publication (from body to title), and included some of the consulted material. I suspect that the atypical behavior is because it was a heated mainstream topic, so he knew that he could get in trouble to announce its cure on social media. The inconsistency suggests awareness on where to tread.
"While there is some speculation that vitamin D is helpful for resisting viral agents, it is not our primary protective factor against them nor the factor which influences the seasonal occurrence of the flu or that of the current COVID-19 outbreak, and SARS as well occurred during the winter season (they’re all related to the flu, I believe). The one factor all this has in common, however, is sunlight. But, more specifically, how our bodies respond to or benefit from sunlight. There is an abundance of evidence that the B vitamin riboflavin, which is highly sensitive to light, is the agent which assists our bodies to restrain viral infections, and the mechanisms of action by which riboflavin helps protect us against both bacterial and viral pathogens is pretty well understood. Because riboflavin is extremely light sensitive our body uses it in pathways which regulate circadian rhythms. But when riboflavin is exposed to light, as it is in our skin when we get exposure to sun or bright light, it is actually energized from the interaction with photons and itself becomes irradiated. Then, in the irradiated state riboflavin is moderately to highly destructive to bacteria and viruses. These studies often show direct irradiation of riboflavin, but the same natural irradiation occurs simply from riboflavin created in our gut microbiome or obtained through diet or supplementation and the body’s exposure to natural sunlight. This is why the flu is restrained to seasonal patterns rather than being an ubiquitous affliction all year long, and why those with more Northerly climates or societies with prudish ideas of public skin exposure are being harder hit (or those with poor nutrition caused by economic inequality). Exposure to sufficient sunlight in humans during warmer months irradiates riboflavin in the body which in turn confers herd immunity (which is the collective resistance of an entire group of people against a pathogen on account of most of them being resistant) and thus prevents the spread of the flu until seasonal changes result in reductions of sun exposure thus impairing riboflavin irradiation which in turn allows such viruses to flourish."
The light absorption spectrum of riboflavin:
Peaks within the UVc, UVb, UVa, and blue light range. Image from one of the materials below.However, these shorter wavelengths are barred at the superficial layer of the skin and barely reach the layer beneath.
I didn't find the source.If you search for photodynamic therapy with flavins as photosensitizers, the results are almost entirely for irradiation of blood products (such as plasma, where the liquid is spread in a flat container) or for the treatment of external conditions. It's no wonder that the material linked by him falls into these superficial categories.
For light therapy in humans, I did find one experiment involving riboflavin in viral infections, but it was poorly-designed and not much can be concluded from it.
Riboflavin has many systemic effects and the population can be running low on it. How to claim success with photodynamic therapy relying on riboflavin as a photosensitizer if there was no group taking riboflavin without light application to compare? Also, people were asked to wear a dubious bracelet with 2 tiny blue LEDs for whole-body effects through circulation (which is comical), but the majority of LEDs were off from the absorption spectrum of flavins that they shared (also comical).
These wavelengths introduce confounders. For example, red light prevails, it enters tissues, and one hour for a session is a considerable exposure.
But they knew that higher chances to attack riboflavin were near the surface, asking people to use a riboflavin (5-phosphate) solution and later irradiating the regions:
Even though they selected people in the early stages of infection, I'm not sure how useful irradiation was at that point, as people were already complaining of breathing difficulties. But these were the internal sites that they had accessible.
Benefits might have stemmed from fixing a long-standing riboflavin insufficiency or from light therapy in general.
To prevent infections from spreading, the body tries to contain them at mucosal barriers (areas of first contact), where shorter sunlight wavelengths won't hit and distant radicals won't reach, for being short-lived and quickly quenched. Riboflavin has to be next to targets because the reactions are local and instantaneous, involving radical attack. It's why photosensitizers that absorb red light are favored for internal tissues, and riboflavin is not one of them.
Therefore, the listed substances are of help, but the explanations are doubtful.
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Check out his remarks on acne:
"Acne does not just occur on the face, although that is usually the source of our dislike since it muddies up our appearance. One of the reasons that acne is so concentrated on the face is because of where the iron excreted on the face comes from. Iron seems to be excreted in the fastest route possible via the skin, rather than circulating through the body, and while some organs like the liver and spleen will store iron, the rest of the body does not readily release it back into the blood stream once absorbed. In the case of the head, where large incidents of acne occurs, this iron comes from our most metabolically demanding organ—the brain. Since the brain is surrounded by skull, excreting iron would be extremely slow and difficult if it traveled through bone, so it instead goes through the face."
Want more? In line with pumpkins, how about his declaration that a lack of carotene is a main cause of gut problems?
"[..]carotene deficiency is one of the primary causes of gut dysbiosis and other gastrointestinal problems."
Yet more? He used to assert that the cause of body malodor is iron. Try to consume plenty of sulfur compounds (garlic, onion, eggs, acetylcysteine, thiamin) and smell the fragrance afterwards. It's iron mobilization?
It's an author who tells the audience that, by the time that you're 40, you're already old, proceeding to explain that you should accept that you'll live most of your life as an old person. But don't worry, you can be a healthy oldie.
Moving on, he asserted:
"The idea of a superfood is in reality wishful thinking, which is a nice way to cope with life but comes with some very serious consequences if it gets out of hand. If you struggle with health problems, limiting your diet is one of the absolute worst things you can do to yourself. This usually leads to the obsessive search for some miracle food you are missing, when in reality you are just missing all the foods."
By the same individual:
"A List of Helpful and Unhelpful Foods"
Where he stipulated that rice, potatoes and nixtamalized corn are foods that should be avoided most of the time. Oh, along with yogurt, vegan diets are categorized by him as "SHIT THAT GAVE YOU THE CANCER FROM WHICH YOU DIE IN 15 YEARS", which is funny considering how therapeutic diets for cancer adapt towards veganism.
He declared to someone pondering thyroid hormones supplementation, natural or synthetic:
"Thyroid supplements don't really do anything."
These are a few more examples that I remember stumbling upon, but we could go on. I hope that it's getting clearer where I'm coming from.
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@Amazoniac said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
In another strike of openness to counterviews, the thread is now invisible to me, probably as a result of getting blocked by its creator. If I didn't have it linked elsewhere, I wouldn't be able to access it again. The discussions that appear are those that the originators allow them to.
The last humanist is a transhumanist with a bridge to sell. No time like the present to waffle about it. And I will.
"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."
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@Amazoniac said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
Also, people were asked to wear a dubious bracelet with 2 tiny blue LEDs for whole-body effects through circulation (which is comical), but the majority of LEDs were off from the absorption spectrum of flavins that they shared (also comical).
Oh good. Wearable green/red photoplethysmogram devices are quite the trend these days. Practically glued to many.
@Amazoniac said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
Want more?
Always and thank you.
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@Amazoniac that girl isn't even peaty
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@Sugar Care to elaborate? I've been using Nathan's very "Peaty" recommendations for more than 2 months and my temperature has never been better. My daytime temps are between 98.4 and 99.1. My very hypothyroid husband is doing even better. His temp went from low 97's and is now usually around 99.1 throughout the day. And although we are both experiencing occasional discomfort in areas that are healing, we both have better energy and sleep has improved dramatically (just to mention a few improvements.) Nothing we have tried since I found Dr Peat 15 years ago, has helped us so much.
I started this thread to hear from others who have actually tried Nathan's strategies to learn what they experienced. It was hijacked by people drowning out the discussion (with MANY tldr posts) who haven't even read his book but have an obvious bias against him. Even if Nathan is wrong about one or two things (which he says he certainly may be) we are responding well to his recommendations. Dr. Peat (who saved my life as well as Nathan's, and who receives praise for this in his book) was also wrong about some things, which I won't go into here as others have discussed this elsewhere.
There are those here who want to learn and help others... And then there are the pot stirrers. Which are you?
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@S-Holmes Let me give you an outside perspective. Hatch has:
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his "free book chapter" was whining about feelings of persecution because he somehow psychically knew his folks only had "the talk" about "long showers" with him but not his brother; also same psychic ability about him being gay at that age.
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he would later come clean and admit most of his weight loss and new website pictures were because his partner forced him to hit the gym, or his partner would leave him
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as Amazoniac points out, Hatch often jumps to conclusions; I have no idea if his work is good or not, it reminds me of old "historical accounts" where the writer admits it was actually a dream or vision
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personally, I've seen you and several others make claims about Hatch and/or his work helping, but can never name specifics, some claiming it would remove potential customers (this seems very parasocial and weird); perhaps you would like to dispel this notion?
So for me, I see a guy who writes like a poet, happens to be the only guy getting certain results from certain things, and then his main physical transformation was from resuming weight lifting (I'm sure the accountability from his partner helped). There is no planet I where I would pay someone like that money.
Like the "well maybe vitamin A is toxic" crowd I notice the same generalized anti-Peat claims which also remain amorphous. I don't personally care about this but the point is that someone who can never describe something isn't saying anything at all.
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@NotShanalotte A lot to unpack here and frankly I don't have the time. But one glaring mistruth in your comment is that he lost weight working out after his partner threatened to leave. He actually says the opposite. The year he regained his health and lost the most weight, he was very sedentary and went to the gym less than once a month. Maybe, like the others who criticize him, you havent read his book either?
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@S-Holmes said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
I've been using Nathan's very "Peaty" recommendations for more than 2 months and my temperature has never been better.
I can't speak for why that individual said you weren't "peaty," but I think the general issue is Nathan's advice itself. At least this is how I see it. Ray Peat has NEVER been against portion control, or more specifically, calorie restriction. This issue came up on another thread here, and it's came up again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again on the RPF. And for whatever reason, people can't seem to wrap their head around this idea, despite the words leaving Peat's mouth on video/audio recording. The idea that Ray has said excessive calories make people fat isn't an idea "pulled out of the ethos," it's from Ray Peat's mouth.
In fact, in nearly every scenario where I've seen someone critique CICO, it's usually been from low-carbers who espouse the insulin theory of fat gain. So basically the people furthest from Ray's ideas. I can't remember them all, but I know Gary Taubes and that guy that made the famous "Fat Head" documentary believed this. I'm not suggesting Nathan is as bad as these people. The mere fact he's supportive of sugar makes him a notch better. But he's still got some ketobro logic to weight gain, as do many others around these parts. Calories do in fact matter, which means portion control matters. Forgoing portion control is choosing to ignore Ray's views about weight loss in the context of euthyroid people (Obviously I'm not discussing hypo people, which Ray has discussed in detail as well. Severe hypothyroidism can make people maintain weight even in caloric deficits.)
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I read his weightlifting comment right off of his website, and it was gone about 2 days after I checked again because I was going to screenshot it. I have an eyewitness who both saw it and was surprised to see it disappear.
If you had paid attention, I told you why I didn't read his book, because he spent the free chapter whining about something all guys go through. His self-victimization is just gross. He should have put his best foot forward rather than waste my time as a potential customer.
If you spent the time reading and answering the posts here rather than kissing his ass you would have plenty of time to "unpack" and you wouldn't have made such a faux pas.
"You don't have the time"? Really It should take 30 seconds to type out a bullet list or outline of what helped you, but it's obvious you don't care about that, it's the attention from white knighting you want. because you're not getting the attention you want. Like your idol, you've wasted my time and said nothing at all.
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@Mulloch94 I see that context is needed. My husband and I eat or drink something carby every 2 to 3 hours (as Nathan instructed). We have both lost weight and our temps and energy levels are great. He says if you wait until you're hungry that's too long. What IS eaten is also important. Pufas and industrial wheat products are forbidden and organic foods are essential. I'm just at a loss as to why people are so opposed. Im guessing I'm the only person here who has actually read the book.
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Friendly discussion is welcome. No tolerance for personal attacks. I do not want the drama. Take it somewhere else please.
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@S-Holmes No I've never read his book. Don't see the purpose, even if it does work I've found my own way through my problems. Also the last person I've seen to take up arms against the CICO school of thought was Cirion on the old forum, and one of his very last posts were him flipping out on Ray for supporting calorie reduction, and then he suddenly disappears. Rage quit the forum I guess, lol. I don't think he was being very truthful about his weight loss journey either. Just my opinion, so I can't prove anything.
I just found it weird he was gaining weight then a couple months later summed up his posting time on the forum by saying "Ray wrong, I keep getting better...bye bye now." I don't wanna be that guy that says "post pics or it never happened," but when someone claims they can defy CICO and eat 5,000-7,000 calories a day and lose weight I'd like to see more than just their words on a thread. Because I equate that statement to some astronaut going into space and tweeting "Wow, the earth really is flat." without sending picture evidence.
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@S-Holmes
Describing your passive-aggressive, ragequitting attitude while criticizing Hatch are not personal attacks. You obviously chose not to read my post, attacked me anyways, and like the pigeon and chessboard, declared yourself the winner. You are causing the drama by going into histrionics every time the topic doesn't go how you want, including ragequitting. Then you answered Mulloch with the info I, and I assume others, wanted anyway. So yeah, I've read your posts on RPF and I know you can write well and be descriptive but you decided to be an absolute donkey to me and, previously, anyone else who criticizes Hatch. So I can't see how describing your actions as ass kissing is a personal attack, you don't react like this to any other subject matter as I recall.Choose virtue over drama in the future, don't project, attack someone and play the victim.
@anyone else
For everyone else, I independently came up with the Hatch recommendations Holmes posted and can tell you, without sufficient hormones and thyroid, it may not make a difference. Very helpful and not to disparage, but many others came to the same conclusion on the (former lol) RPF to "eat what their grandparents ate" and their mileage varied as well. IME, T3 may still be warranted as well as hormonal replacement which I have done much more aggressively than Ray ever recommended. I still stand by not wanting to buy an expensive book for the same reason I wouldn't charge money for ppl to read my own personal experiments. -
@Mulloch94 Then this thread isn't for you. I'm interested in discussions with people who have read and applied his strategies.
My husband has had trouble sleeping through the night for many years. If nothing else had improved that would be enough for us. But there's more. I've tried to raise our metabolism for decades. I love Dr. Peat, but this NEVER happened before now...applying Nathan's methods.
I hope people will stop being a hindrance to others who havent seen much progress.
What's wrong with trying something different? (Rhetorical) -
My temperature just now (and every afternoon for the past 6 weeks).
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Conversation, debate, and exchange 101, a brief "step 0" summary.
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Be sure there's subject matter to discuss. Post something of substance could help people and spark discussion of what works
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When composing, ask yourself questions like "What is your basis for (your or my own) claim(s)? When did you apply Hatchian methods (in the case of this thread)? Which ones? Were you able to keep track of relevant details so others in the future would have clues to go by if direct application didn't work?
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Be open to feedback, even when you don't want to hear it. Attachment to particular people and/or ideas can prevent your mind from flourishing and from truly participating
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Be deliberate about getting your meaning across. Don't be patronizing, but make sure you're producing quality content rather than doing a poor job followed by asking rhetorical questions.
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realize that open forum threads are not your dominion, you cannot prevent others from participating
"Bear...Seek...Seek...Lest."
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@NotShanalotte said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
Conversation, debate, and exchange 101, a brief "step 0" summary.
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Be sure there's subject matter to discuss. Post something of substance could help people and spark discussion of what works
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When composing, ask yourself questions like "What is your basis for (your or my own) claim(s)? When did you apply Hatchian methods (in the case of this thread)? Which ones? Were you able to keep track of relevant details so others in the future would have clues to go by if direct application didn't work?
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Be open to feedback, even when you don't want to hear it. Attachment to particular people and/or ideas can prevent your mind from flourishing and from truly participating
-
Be deliberate about getting your meaning across. Don't be patronizing, but make sure you're producing quality content rather than doing a poor job followed by asking rhetorical questions.
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realize that open forum threads are not your dominion, you cannot prevent others from participating
Based!
It's probably for the best I'm in the doghouse and she can't see my endorsement.
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@ThinPicking said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
@NotShanalotte said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
Conversation, debate, and exchange 101, a brief "step 0" summary.
-
Be sure there's subject matter to discuss. Post something of substance could help people and spark discussion of what works
-
When composing, ask yourself questions like "What is your basis for (your or my own) claim(s)? When did you apply Hatchian methods (in the case of this thread)? Which ones? Were you able to keep track of relevant details so others in the future would have clues to go by if direct application didn't work?
-
Be open to feedback, even when you don't want to hear it. Attachment to particular people and/or ideas can prevent your mind from flourishing and from truly participating
-
Be deliberate about getting your meaning across. Don't be patronizing, but make sure you're producing quality content rather than doing a poor job followed by asking rhetorical questions.
-
realize that open forum threads are not your dominion, you cannot prevent others from participating
Based!
It's probably for the best I'm in the doghouse and she can't see my endorsement.
Thank you, and yeah it's so weird on RPF she was eloquent and made long responses in most cases but now just making conversation is too much effort. We're better off this way.
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