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    Studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking

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    • MauritioM
      Mauritio @cs3000
      last edited by Mauritio

      @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

      @cs3000 carbon dioxide therapy co2 came close ,
      20 minutes in a bag filled with co2 that covers half the body, amazingly just twice a week, enhanced by a gel applied locally
      https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0100530
      97a5e90b-0e65-465d-8531-35a7d1df5d05-image.png

      Wow that one is impressive !! RP right again.
      So doing a CO2 bath a la Ray peat should be a very good cancer prevention even just once or twice a week!

      In this study they used a skin cancer , im wondering if other cancers would react the same way. In the abstract they say that it decreased lung metastasis in a previous study, I'd still like to see more studies with dofferenr tumors.

      That treatment setup with mice is kind of hilarious 😂
      1000006889.png

      Dare to think.

      My X:
      x.com/Metabolicmonstr

      cs3000C 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
      • MauritioM
        Mauritio
        last edited by

        You should also check out the effects methionine restriction on cancer , especially as a combination with methioniase. There's some impressive case studies in humans as well.

        Dare to think.

        My X:
        x.com/Metabolicmonstr

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • cs3000C
          cs3000 @Mauritio
          last edited by cs3000

          @Mauritio
          yep and i imagine daily would be even better, interesting that short duration was effective

          i saw a pic someone posted in a co2 thread with a crazy tall straight clear bag strapped around his head going right up to the ceiling, and was taken from low angle as extra perspective, creased me up , imagine experience of a delivery guy walking in on this lol, "welcome, have you heard about ray peat" before he leaves.
          & probably not the safest, but i respected the effort,
          will have alook at that


          it does work broadly yeah
          here it had less profound effect in a connective tissue cancer but still good
          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/#s2title they did 10 minutes instead of 20 minutes

          I just saw something amazing actually
          when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all
          47f4a861-0847-4e05-9456-3c8a7388203e-image.png


          "world," as a source of new perceptions
          more https://substack.com/@cs3001

          "Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration"

          cs3000C MauritioM 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • cs3000C
            cs3000 @cs3000
            last edited by cs3000

            @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

            @Mauritio yep and i imagine daily would be even better, interesting that short duration was effective it does work broadly yeah
            here it had less profound effect in a connective tissue cancer but still good
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/#s2title they did 10 minutes instead of 20 minutes .
            I just saw something amazing actually when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all :

            Here we go, big one
            https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/or.2017.5591
            great studies by these people exploring all the angles

            Surprisingly going for more days of co2 weekly didnt give better effect, 2 days is enough,
            but going for longer than 10 minutes does give more improvement (20 minutes worked better) in breast & bone cancer, effect peaks around there as 1 hr did not give better effect

            • Additionally, in a preliminary study, no further decrease in tumor volume was observed with the 1-h treatment compared to the 20-min treatment
            • For the CO2 therapy, there was no difference in effectiveness of frequencies of twice and five times per week; in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.

            And they found the cancer regressed below baseline with 20 minutes applications, in all of the mice

            And they even said two of the breast cancer tumors disappeared @haidut

            Bone tumors also got smaller below baseline
            .... this is happening fast over a few days / weeks ... amazing

            it did not work as well on a rarer aggressive sarcoma tumor. but slowed growth with this (which the table doesnt show)

            • in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.

            • In the current study, the most significant antitumor effect was observed in the MDA-MB-231 breast cancer model. At the end of treatment, all treated tumors in the MDA-MB-231 model were smaller than pre-treated tumors, and notably, two of the six tumors in the 20-min group had disappeared

            5e008569-b930-470e-a053-5e274ab02d04-image.png

            4b89767e-1b9a-4328-a1ed-1ba9ed60d496-image.png
            3e064275-fde9-420e-824a-3f1c961f0137-image.png

            Additionally, using a treatment frequency of twice per week, tumor volumes were smaller with a treatment interval of 3 and 4 days than with a treatment interval of 2 and 5 days.
            We also found that transcutaneous CO2 application was ineffective when applied at a distant site relative to the tumor location. Therefore, the CO2 therapy should be applied to the body surface close to the tumor location.
            We previously developed an alternative system for CO2 application that can access deep-seated tumors using intra-arterial infusion of saturated CO2 solution (20). These findings suggest that continuous treatment, twice per week with an interval of 3 + 4 days, applied to the local site of the tumor, provides the best antitumor effect for transcutaneous CO2 application.

            So 20 minutes, enhanced by a co2 capturing gel locally to the tumor site, 2 times per week, every wednesday and sunday (3 & then 4 days), gives max effectiveness

            sounds like simple glycerol/glycerin + water could work for the gel,
            or sodium alginate
            (majority water as long as its thick enough to not run down skin)
            https://patents.google.com/patent/JPWO2004002393A1/en?oq=WO2004%2F002393

            • A viscous liquid prepared using 2 parts by weight of sodium alginate as a thickener and 98 parts by weight of purified water as water is impregnated into a 4 cm diameter polyester nonwoven fabric, and this is immersed in a 1% calcium chloride aqueous solution to support the nonwoven fabric. A hydrogel film of calcium alginate as a body was prepared, and this was adopted as a carbon dioxide absorption aid 4

            • An appropriate amount of the carbon dioxide absorption assisting material 4 is applied to a 5 mm diameter scratch on the left back of a 37-year-old woman, a left hand is put in the sealed envelope 2, and carbon dioxide is supplied to the sealed envelope 2 by the carbon dioxide supply device 3 to 10 seconds at a rate of 200 milliliters / second, and then 5 minutes at a rate of 20 milliliters / second. When the auxiliary material was washed away, the pain felt before touching the water completely disappeared, and the wound healing promoting effect was confirmed.

            • A 48-year-old man's 5cm square carbon dioxide absorption aid 4 is affixed to the left back of the 48-year-old man, and without putting anything on the right back, each hand is put in the two sealed enclosures 2a and 2b, and each enclosed enclosure Carbon dioxide was first supplied to the material 2 from the carbon dioxide supply device 3 at a rate of 200 milliliters / second for 10 seconds and then at a rate of 20 milliliters / second for 7 minutes.
              The man's hands quickly became warm, but the left back felt warmer than the right back.

            Gel + ~ 7 Liters of co2 gas sealed in a 20cm long plastic bag was enough for pain reduction and wound healing effect in this woman

            "world," as a source of new perceptions
            more https://substack.com/@cs3001

            "Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration"

            MauritioM AmazoniacA 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • MauritioM
              Mauritio @cs3000
              last edited by

              @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

              i saw a pic someone posted in a co2 thread with a crazy tall straight clear bag strapped around his head going right up to the ceiling, and was taken from low angle as extra perspective, creased me up , imagine experience of a delivery guy walking in on this lol, "welcome, have you heard about ray peat" before he leaves.
              & probably not the safest, but i respected the effort,
              will have alook at that

              😂 Lol ... The word peatard exists for a reason

              @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

              I just saw something amazing actually
              when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all

              Nice so it works for breast cancer as well.

              Dare to think.

              My X:
              x.com/Metabolicmonstr

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • MauritioM
                Mauritio @cs3000
                last edited by

                @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                @Mauritio yep and i imagine daily would be even better, interesting that short duration was effective it does work broadly yeah
                here it had less profound effect in a connective tissue cancer but still good
                https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/#s2title they did 10 minutes instead of 20 minutes .
                I just saw something amazing actually when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all :

                Here we go, big one
                https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/or.2017.5591
                great studies by these people exploring all the angles

                Surprisingly going for more days of co2 weekly didnt give better effect, 2 days is enough,
                but going for longer than 10 minutes does give more improvement (20 minutes worked better) in breast & bone cancer, effect peaks around there as 1 hr did not give better effect

                • Additionally, in a preliminary study, no further decrease in tumor volume was observed with the 1-h treatment compared to the 20-min treatment
                • For the CO2 therapy, there was no difference in effectiveness of frequencies of twice and five times per week; in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.

                And they found the cancer regressed below baseline with 20 minutes applications, in all of the mice

                And they even said two of the breast cancer tumors disappeared @haidut

                Bone tumors also got smaller below baseline
                .... this is happening fast over a few days / weeks ... amazing

                it did not work as well on a rarer aggressive sarcoma tumor. but slowed growth with this (which the table doesnt show)

                • in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.

                • In the current study, the most significant antitumor effect was observed in the MDA-MB-231 breast cancer model. At the end of treatment, all treated tumors in the MDA-MB-231 model were smaller than pre-treated tumors, and notably, two of the six tumors in the 20-min group had disappeared

                5e008569-b930-470e-a053-5e274ab02d04-image.png

                4b89767e-1b9a-4328-a1ed-1ba9ed60d496-image.png
                3e064275-fde9-420e-824a-3f1c961f0137-image.png

                Additionally, using a treatment frequency of twice per week, tumor volumes were smaller with a treatment interval of 3 and 4 days than with a treatment interval of 2 and 5 days.
                We also found that transcutaneous CO2 application was ineffective when applied at a distant site relative to the tumor location. Therefore, the CO2 therapy should be applied to the body surface close to the tumor location.
                We previously developed an alternative system for CO2 application that can access deep-seated tumors using intra-arterial infusion of saturated CO2 solution (20). These findings suggest that continuous treatment, twice per week with an interval of 3 + 4 days, applied to the local site of the tumor, provides the best antitumor effect for transcutaneous CO2 application.

                So 20 minutes, enhanced by a co2 capturing gel locally to the tumor site, 2 times per week, every wednesday and sunday (3 & then 4 days), gives max effectiveness

                sounds like simple glycerol/glycerin + water could work for the gel,
                or sodium alginate
                (majority water as long as its thick enough to not run down skin)
                https://patents.google.com/patent/JPWO2004002393A1/en?oq=WO2004%2F002393

                • A viscous liquid prepared using 2 parts by weight of sodium alginate as a thickener and 98 parts by weight of purified water as water is impregnated into a 4 cm diameter polyester nonwoven fabric, and this is immersed in a 1% calcium chloride aqueous solution to support the nonwoven fabric. A hydrogel film of calcium alginate as a body was prepared, and this was adopted as a carbon dioxide absorption aid 4

                • An appropriate amount of the carbon dioxide absorption assisting material 4 is applied to a 5 mm diameter scratch on the left back of a 37-year-old woman, a left hand is put in the sealed envelope 2, and carbon dioxide is supplied to the sealed envelope 2 by the carbon dioxide supply device 3 to 10 seconds at a rate of 200 milliliters / second, and then 5 minutes at a rate of 20 milliliters / second. When the auxiliary material was washed away, the pain felt before touching the water completely disappeared, and the wound healing promoting effect was confirmed.

                • A 48-year-old man's 5cm square carbon dioxide absorption aid 4 is affixed to the left back of the 48-year-old man, and without putting anything on the right back, each hand is put in the two sealed enclosures 2a and 2b, and each enclosed enclosure Carbon dioxide was first supplied to the material 2 from the carbon dioxide supply device 3 at a rate of 200 milliliters / second for 10 seconds and then at a rate of 20 milliliters / second for 7 minutes.
                  The man's hands quickly became warm, but the left back felt warmer than the right back.

                Gel + ~ 7 Liters of co2 gas sealed in a 20cm long plastic bag was enough for pain reduction and wound healing effect in this woman

                Wow ,what a study!

                So it does work for some but not all tumors. But it seems to at least help in all tumors for almost no cost and risk involved. Sounds great.

                If the CO2 application is applied too distant from the tumor it doesn't work, though. So if you have a big bag for the CO2 bath, that only goes up until your navel and your tumor is in your thyroid, it won't work.
                So for prevention purposes the bag should cover as much body surface area as possible, because you never know where a tumor is developing. Although I'm sure there's something like a beneficial bystander effect. Even if you only bath your foot in CO2 , the whole body will benefit.

                Peat said just having a wet body surface enhances absorption so after showering would be good time .

                Dare to think.

                My X:
                x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                cs3000C 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • AmazoniacA
                  Amazoniac @cs3000
                  last edited by

                  @cs3000

                  Another good one. (@Mauritio, yours are too.)

                  Have they explained elsewhere why they coat the skin with a gel to then expose it to 100% CO2?

                  I now have a support page!

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • cs3000C
                    cs3000 @Mauritio
                    last edited by cs3000

                    @mauritio
                    yep easy on the body
                    the one it showed inhibition on but not shrinkage was a highly aggressive type, i think haiduts study is on an aggressive type too showing a curative effect from the raising of co2 internally . but for people who get inflammatory / allergic reaction to aspirin or have gut issues, maybe external co2 combined with lipoic acid (pyruvate dehydrogenase increaser) + thiamine (carbonic anhydrase inhibitor) could tip things over for this aggressive type too

                    i didnt find how much co2 they used so going by the process the used in their patent for the wound healing effect assuming its the same.
                    they said ~7L 8L co2 gas in a bag around the arm 20cm x 15cm, so only a small amount needed with gel, i think 1L at standard temp / pressure is ~2g co2
                    @Mauritio said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                    If the CO2 application is applied too distant from the tumor it doesn't work, though. So if you have a big bag for the CO2 bath, that only goes up until your navel and your tumor is in your thyroid, it won't work.
                    So for prevention purposes the bag should cover as much body surface area as possible, because you never know where a tumor is developing. Although I'm sure there's something like a beneficial bystander effect. Even if you only bath your foot in CO2 , the whole body will benefit.

                    yeh, mainly local & i'd think the co2 would accumulate at the bottom of the bag if its not filled enough right. but if using a see-through bag can see if skin higher is changing color too or not

                    if need to target the torso or higher a full 150L bag might be ~ 300g co2 , i guess someone would know if thats too high systemically by body reaction ,

                    Someone mentioned having carbs 30 minutes before starting , good idea

                    @Amazoniac With gel it traps the co2 then moves through the skin when it reaches max capacity, and keeps the skin moist through the 20 minute session enhancing absorption , as gel form doesn't evaporate off the skin quick
                    @TexugoDoMel posted a study showing even using an acid + baking soda in gel has positive effects on muscle repair without using co2 gas

                    Because of its relatively high solubility, CO2 gas dissolves in the hydrogel. The dissolved CO2 then permeates the skin, moving down its concentration gradient when the maximum solubility in the hydrogel is reached. Our previous study showed that CO2 penetrated human tissue by this system
                    In this system, the CO2 hydrogel is applied to the skin to allow CO2 to dissolve and penetrate into the local tissue, which humidifies the skin without bathing, thereby forming a passage for CO2 to reach the local tissues. This system allows for the easy application of CO2 to any site of the body.
                    (without water or gel vs gel)
                    58d3348b-98ec-4933-a4b9-910bddbaea98-image.png

                    "world," as a source of new perceptions
                    more https://substack.com/@cs3001

                    "Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration"

                    AmazoniacA 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • AmazoniacA
                      Amazoniac @cs3000
                      last edited by

                      @cs3000

                      Tissues are permeable to CO2, but unlike internal tissues, it seems that the packed organization of the skin inhibits the diffusion of CO2.

                      I had in mind that a CO2-saturated gel would be superior to CO2 in air, but inferior to direct contact with 100% CO2 gas, making the gel work more as a barrier. However, it can be pressed against the skin to move other components out and maximize absorption.

                      The pH of the solution decreasing shows that CO2 was yielding some carbonic acid, which further complicates absorption when it ionizes (CO2 + H2O → H2CO3 → H+ + HCO3–), although the skin pH is about 5.

                      Another advantage of direct gas exposure would be quick renewal. With the gel, the redistribution of CO2 towards the contact sites can be slower.

                      What am I missing?

                      I now have a support page!

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • cs3000C
                        cs3000
                        last edited by cs3000

                        Methionine restriction to enhance Rapamycin (& high dose thiamine possibly as a CA inhibitor but less so)
                        https://bioenergetic.forum/post/26937

                        7e26c6fd-4d54-41ac-bd8a-31ba8db33bc6-image.png

                        0dd42216-9ff4-4bcd-afcc-a969277eea6f-image.png

                        "world," as a source of new perceptions
                        more https://substack.com/@cs3001

                        "Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration"

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • MauritioM
                          Mauritio @cs3000
                          last edited by

                          @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                          @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                          @Mauritio yep and i imagine daily would be even better, interesting that short duration was effective it does work broadly yeah
                          here it had less profound effect in a connective tissue cancer but still good
                          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/#s2title they did 10 minutes instead of 20 minutes .
                          I just saw something amazing actually when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all :

                          Here we go, big one
                          https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/or.2017.5591
                          great studies by these people exploring all the angles

                          Surprisingly going for more days of co2 weekly didnt give better effect, 2 days is enough,
                          but going for longer than 10 minutes does give more improvement (20 minutes worked better) in breast & bone cancer, effect peaks around there as 1 hr did not give better effect

                          • Additionally, in a preliminary study, no further decrease in tumor volume was observed with the 1-h treatment compared to the 20-min treatment
                          • For the CO2 therapy, there was no difference in effectiveness of frequencies of twice and five times per week; in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.

                          And they found the cancer regressed below baseline with 20 minutes applications, in all of the mice

                          And they even said two of the breast cancer tumors disappeared @haidut

                          Bone tumors also got smaller below baseline
                          .... this is happening fast over a few days / weeks ... amazing

                          it did not work as well on a rarer aggressive sarcoma tumor. but slowed growth with this (which the table doesnt show)

                          • in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.

                          • In the current study, the most significant antitumor effect was observed in the MDA-MB-231 breast cancer model. At the end of treatment, all treated tumors in the MDA-MB-231 model were smaller than pre-treated tumors, and notably, two of the six tumors in the 20-min group had disappeared

                          5e008569-b930-470e-a053-5e274ab02d04-image.png

                          4b89767e-1b9a-4328-a1ed-1ba9ed60d496-image.png
                          3e064275-fde9-420e-824a-3f1c961f0137-image.png

                          Additionally, using a treatment frequency of twice per week, tumor volumes were smaller with a treatment interval of 3 and 4 days than with a treatment interval of 2 and 5 days.
                          We also found that transcutaneous CO2 application was ineffective when applied at a distant site relative to the tumor location. Therefore, the CO2 therapy should be applied to the body surface close to the tumor location.
                          We previously developed an alternative system for CO2 application that can access deep-seated tumors using intra-arterial infusion of saturated CO2 solution (20). These findings suggest that continuous treatment, twice per week with an interval of 3 + 4 days, applied to the local site of the tumor, provides the best antitumor effect for transcutaneous CO2 application.

                          So 20 minutes, enhanced by a co2 capturing gel locally to the tumor site, 2 times per week, every wednesday and sunday (3 & then 4 days), gives max effectiveness

                          sounds like simple glycerol/glycerin + water could work for the gel,
                          or sodium alginate
                          (majority water as long as its thick enough to not run down skin)
                          https://patents.google.com/patent/JPWO2004002393A1/en?oq=WO2004%2F002393

                          • A viscous liquid prepared using 2 parts by weight of sodium alginate as a thickener and 98 parts by weight of purified water as water is impregnated into a 4 cm diameter polyester nonwoven fabric, and this is immersed in a 1% calcium chloride aqueous solution to support the nonwoven fabric. A hydrogel film of calcium alginate as a body was prepared, and this was adopted as a carbon dioxide absorption aid 4

                          • An appropriate amount of the carbon dioxide absorption assisting material 4 is applied to a 5 mm diameter scratch on the left back of a 37-year-old woman, a left hand is put in the sealed envelope 2, and carbon dioxide is supplied to the sealed envelope 2 by the carbon dioxide supply device 3 to 10 seconds at a rate of 200 milliliters / second, and then 5 minutes at a rate of 20 milliliters / second. When the auxiliary material was washed away, the pain felt before touching the water completely disappeared, and the wound healing promoting effect was confirmed.

                          • A 48-year-old man's 5cm square carbon dioxide absorption aid 4 is affixed to the left back of the 48-year-old man, and without putting anything on the right back, each hand is put in the two sealed enclosures 2a and 2b, and each enclosed enclosure Carbon dioxide was first supplied to the material 2 from the carbon dioxide supply device 3 at a rate of 200 milliliters / second for 10 seconds and then at a rate of 20 milliliters / second for 7 minutes.
                            The man's hands quickly became warm, but the left back felt warmer than the right back.

                          Gel + ~ 7 Liters of co2 gas sealed in a 20cm long plastic bag was enough for pain reduction and wound healing effect in this woman

                          I am going through the studies that this Takeshi guy did and there's some interesting ones. Not sure if that one has been shared.

                          CO2 therapy was just as effective as radiation therapy for this oral squamous cell carcinoma.
                          But CO2 and radiation combined was a lot more effective. And I suppose CO2 made the radiation a lot safer, as can be seen by the rescued white blood cell count.

                          2689a7a4-2528-417c-aa5e-6705798e0a26-image.png

                          https://www.spandidos-publications.com/or/40/1/434

                          Dare to think.

                          My X:
                          x.com/Metabolicmonstr

                          MauritioM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • cs3000C
                            cs3000 @cs3000
                            last edited by cs3000

                            @cs3000 Another good one easily accessible,

                            Simply heating up the body / raising core temp while giving some glucose before stopped breast cancer tumors from growing & even shrank them

                            https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/thermalmedicine1985/16/4/16_4_229/_pdf/-char/en

                            Notably, the combined treatment with glucose and WBH suppressed the tumour growth almost completely for 7 days

                            Cool study, the glucose feeding with the body heating gave an improved effect and even shrank the tumor , (around 40 grams human equivalent glucose)

                            Just 1 use kept it from growing over a week and shrank it for 5 days, so doing it multiple times a week with a few days between might keep the shrinking effect going continually

                            d49434e5-6019-4585-8864-9fd64b0ed206-image.png

                            Mammary tumour growth was strongly inhibited in both group WBH and group G+WBH though the degree of the inhibition was much more marked in group G+WBH, in which the growth was inhibited completely until 7 days after WBH compared to 2 days at most in group WBH.

                            they raised core temp to 39 - 41 degrees over 3 hours, but maintaining 40 degrees+ is where things can get dangerous with cell damage / death. 39 degrees - 39.5 degrees should be manageable and can hit using saunas / portable saunas / baths. (as doing this for hours with metabolism being stimulated i would top up some carb intake every 30 mins)

                            haidut mentioned in his study about changing cellular pH as a key, authors also mentioned:

                            This reflects the stimulation of general metabolism and decrease of pH of tumour tissue, which contributes to the tumour growth inhibition

                            "world," as a source of new perceptions
                            more https://substack.com/@cs3001

                            "Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration"

                            cs3000C 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • ?
                              A Former User
                              last edited by

                              the whole "vegetables are le bad" is cringe tbqhwu fam

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • cs3000C
                                cs3000 @cs3000
                                last edited by cs3000

                                @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                                This reflects the stimulation of general metabolism and decrease of pH of tumour tissue, which contributes to the tumour growth inhibition

                                https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-4-431-67035-3_48

                                After inducing hyperglycemia by glucose administration, nonheated tumor tissue pH decreased by 0.3 to 0.6, whereas pH of nonheated normal tissue fell by only 0.1 to 0.2, with a slower recovery to the previous level than the tumor tissue. On heating after glucose administration, tumor tissue pH fell from 6.9 to 6.5 immediately after heating with a delay of recovery time after heating. In normal tissue, tissue pH of 7.2 before heating fell to 6.9, rapidly recovering to a level higher than the baseline after the heat treatment. Hyperglycemia caused by glcose administration induced a selective decrease of tumor tissue pH, indicating the possibility of inducing selective heat sensitivity in tumors.

                                and more on selective action on tumors https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/thermalmedicine1985/17/4/17_4_203/_pdf

                                Differrent effects on different tumors https://www.researchgate.net/publication/15612753_Apoptosis_in_tumors_and_normal_tissues_induced_by_whole_body_hyperthermia_in_rats
                                29fe5d58-aaf4-461e-b466-07a0a6faf243-image.png
                                no effect on very aggressive type unless paired with something https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3109/02656739709023548?needAccess=true&role=button

                                (those are without carbs boosting, so not getting full effect)

                                https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348378305_Comparing_thermal_stress_reduction_strategies_that_influence_MDSC_accumulation_in_tumor_bearing_mice

                                22 degrees ambient temp (blue) vs 30 degrees (red) = big difference in tumor growth.
                                but boosting core temp 1x a week 6 hours to an average of 39 degrees+ didnt have much effect (why a drastically less significant outcome to the other study? it isnt boosted with carbs before but im assuming they ate carbs during those 6 hours. and the other study also showed a decent inhibitory effect without carbs too. is 40 degrees being at the edge of harmful necessary e.g where atp starts to drop in heart ? is 6 hours too long vs 2-3 hours? maybe in the one with more profound effect most of them hit 39.5+ instead of 39? )
                                Or maybe once a week there wasnt enough to offset the negative effects of the cold temp being 22 degrees instead of preferred thermoneutral 26+ degrees in mice? did the other study use higher housing temp baseline? no, other one used 22-23 ambient temp too
                                4b24a24e-a0d3-497d-bdc6-984ba2b041d6-image.png

                                "world," as a source of new perceptions
                                more https://substack.com/@cs3001

                                "Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration"

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                                • cs3000C
                                  cs3000
                                  last edited by cs3000

                                  insight on what might be good timing for heat therapy
                                  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14023863/ (i've seen in other areas e.g decreasing repetitive behaviours, effects from 1 session can last into 24hrs - 48 hrs later)

                                  When you heat cells they gain a temporary heat tolerance when recovering

                                  I guess the main mechanisms with this are 1. heating cancer cells that have poor ability to dissipate heat so more easily damaged + 2. lowering pH to help induce apoptosis (lower pH so capsase can activate properly and self destruct the cell https://www.nature.com/articles/4400779 which happens optimally at 6.4 pH, and in a study i posted it showed glucose + heat took the tumor from 6.9 -> 6.5 and induced a slower rate of pH recovery) probably by increasing co2 with the carbs & stimulating metabolism. so for the first part

                                  1161de09-35a3-4072-9f19-f9c1adb35234-image.png

                                  Resistant effect mostly lasts 2-3 days
                                  9a5fde5c-7f03-4731-9238-73e798c6fc74-image.png

                                  25d9dd08-39ee-48d5-aaaf-1c19b97d08c2-image.png

                                  day to day loses its effect
                                  mostly back to normal with 1 day break but not fully,
                                  the heat effect itself is not the only mechanism but going by that,

                                  would be 1st day carb+heat session then waiting 2 days after , every 4th day

                                  "world," as a source of new perceptions
                                  more https://substack.com/@cs3001

                                  "Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration"

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                                  • MauritioM
                                    Mauritio @Mauritio
                                    last edited by Mauritio

                                    @Mauritio said in Studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                                    @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                                    @cs3000 said in 2 studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                                    @Mauritio yep and i imagine daily would be even better, interesting that short duration was effective it does work broadly yeah
                                    here it had less profound effect in a connective tissue cancer but still good
                                    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3499556/#s2title they did 10 minutes instead of 20 minutes .
                                    I just saw something amazing actually when they tested it on breast cancer in vivo it almost didnt grow at all :

                                    Here we go, big one
                                    https://www.spandidos-publications.com/10.3892/or.2017.5591
                                    great studies by these people exploring all the angles

                                    Surprisingly going for more days of co2 weekly didnt give better effect, 2 days is enough,
                                    but going for longer than 10 minutes does give more improvement (20 minutes worked better) in breast & bone cancer, effect peaks around there as 1 hr did not give better effect

                                    • Additionally, in a preliminary study, no further decrease in tumor volume was observed with the 1-h treatment compared to the 20-min treatment
                                    • For the CO2 therapy, there was no difference in effectiveness of frequencies of twice and five times per week; in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.

                                    And they found the cancer regressed below baseline with 20 minutes applications, in all of the mice

                                    And they even said two of the breast cancer tumors disappeared @haidut

                                    Bone tumors also got smaller below baseline
                                    .... this is happening fast over a few days / weeks ... amazing

                                    it did not work as well on a rarer aggressive sarcoma tumor. but slowed growth with this (which the table doesnt show)

                                    • in addition, a twice-weekly treatment regimen was sufficient to inhibit in vivo tumor growth, even in MFH/UPS, which is a high-grade sarcoma cell line.

                                    • In the current study, the most significant antitumor effect was observed in the MDA-MB-231 breast cancer model. At the end of treatment, all treated tumors in the MDA-MB-231 model were smaller than pre-treated tumors, and notably, two of the six tumors in the 20-min group had disappeared

                                    5e008569-b930-470e-a053-5e274ab02d04-image.png

                                    4b89767e-1b9a-4328-a1ed-1ba9ed60d496-image.png
                                    3e064275-fde9-420e-824a-3f1c961f0137-image.png

                                    Additionally, using a treatment frequency of twice per week, tumor volumes were smaller with a treatment interval of 3 and 4 days than with a treatment interval of 2 and 5 days.
                                    We also found that transcutaneous CO2 application was ineffective when applied at a distant site relative to the tumor location. Therefore, the CO2 therapy should be applied to the body surface close to the tumor location.
                                    We previously developed an alternative system for CO2 application that can access deep-seated tumors using intra-arterial infusion of saturated CO2 solution (20). These findings suggest that continuous treatment, twice per week with an interval of 3 + 4 days, applied to the local site of the tumor, provides the best antitumor effect for transcutaneous CO2 application.

                                    So 20 minutes, enhanced by a co2 capturing gel locally to the tumor site, 2 times per week, every wednesday and sunday (3 & then 4 days), gives max effectiveness

                                    sounds like simple glycerol/glycerin + water could work for the gel,
                                    or sodium alginate
                                    (majority water as long as its thick enough to not run down skin)
                                    https://patents.google.com/patent/JPWO2004002393A1/en?oq=WO2004%2F002393

                                    • A viscous liquid prepared using 2 parts by weight of sodium alginate as a thickener and 98 parts by weight of purified water as water is impregnated into a 4 cm diameter polyester nonwoven fabric, and this is immersed in a 1% calcium chloride aqueous solution to support the nonwoven fabric. A hydrogel film of calcium alginate as a body was prepared, and this was adopted as a carbon dioxide absorption aid 4

                                    • An appropriate amount of the carbon dioxide absorption assisting material 4 is applied to a 5 mm diameter scratch on the left back of a 37-year-old woman, a left hand is put in the sealed envelope 2, and carbon dioxide is supplied to the sealed envelope 2 by the carbon dioxide supply device 3 to 10 seconds at a rate of 200 milliliters / second, and then 5 minutes at a rate of 20 milliliters / second. When the auxiliary material was washed away, the pain felt before touching the water completely disappeared, and the wound healing promoting effect was confirmed.

                                    • A 48-year-old man's 5cm square carbon dioxide absorption aid 4 is affixed to the left back of the 48-year-old man, and without putting anything on the right back, each hand is put in the two sealed enclosures 2a and 2b, and each enclosed enclosure Carbon dioxide was first supplied to the material 2 from the carbon dioxide supply device 3 at a rate of 200 milliliters / second for 10 seconds and then at a rate of 20 milliliters / second for 7 minutes.
                                      The man's hands quickly became warm, but the left back felt warmer than the right back.

                                    Gel + ~ 7 Liters of co2 gas sealed in a 20cm long plastic bag was enough for pain reduction and wound healing effect in this woman

                                    I am going through the studies that this Takeshi guy did and there's some interesting ones. Not sure if that one has been shared.

                                    CO2 therapy was just as effective as radiation therapy for this oral squamous cell carcinoma.
                                    But CO2 and radiation combined was a lot more effective. And I suppose CO2 made the radiation a lot safer, as can be seen by the rescued white blood cell count.

                                    2689a7a4-2528-417c-aa5e-6705798e0a26-image.png

                                    https://www.spandidos-publications.com/or/40/1/434

                                    Very interesting! RP right again.

                                    So tumor prevention/treatment can be as simple as taking a hot bath and a CO2 bath once or twice a week.

                                    I'm wondering where do heat shock proteins come into play here? They must be raised significantly...

                                    I couldn't find peats newsletter on HSPs but here's the one on body temperature:
                                    https://wiki.chadnet.org/body-temperature-inflammation-and-aging.pdf

                                    Dare to think.

                                    My X:
                                    x.com/Metabolicmonstr

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                                    • DavidPSD
                                      DavidPS @Mauritio
                                      last edited by DavidPS

                                      @Mauritio said in Studies showing cancer reversal / shrinking:

                                      I'm wondering where do heat shock proteins come into play here? They must be raised significantly...

                                      I couldn't find peats newsletter on HSPs but here's the one on body temperature:
                                      https://wiki.chadnet.org/body-temperature-inflammation-and-aging.pdf

                                      Here is a video that might be of interest.
                                      #51: Heat Shock Proteins | Antibiotic Resistance | DHT Safety | Energy and Aging with Ray Peat, PhD

                                      It has timestamps that do not automatically hotlink on this forum.
                                      00:00 - Start
                                      01:10 - Ray's new newsletter
                                      05:05 - Le Chatelier's principle, Lamarckian fish, Barbara McClintock
                                      09:18 - Gilbert Ling, ATP "the queen of cardinal adsorbents," phase transitions, coacervates, rigor mortis
                                      13:51 - "The role of ATP is not limited to the contraction cycle. It dominates the physical state of muscle even in rest, keeping it soft and pliable... rigor mortis is but a lack of ATP..." Albert Szent-Györgyi
                                      14:43 - Does the activation of the heat shock proteins (HSPs) precede cell division?
                                      16:02 - Niacinamide and solubility, energy loss, DNA repair
                                      19:09 - What about gelatin?
                                      20:85 - Estrogen activates HSPs, redox balance, progesterone inhibits HSPs, water economy
                                      23:15 - Should we activate the HSPs?
                                      25:12 - Will the activation of the HSPs leave a scar?
                                      27:06 - "Energy deprivation stabilizing proteins"

                                      29:37 - Metallic taste in the mouth, lipid peroxidation
                                      30:20 - "Estrogen, hyperventilation, lactate, etc., increase serotonin, and I think it’s serotonin that directly increases PTH, and then PTH increases NO." Ray Peat (2017)
                                      33:30 - The living cell is more susceptible in the fatigued state
                                      38:23 - HSP inhibitors: tetracycline, progesterone, methylene blue, etc.
                                      38:58 - Is PTH a "newer" part of the system?
                                      40:25 - Is RAAS more ancient than the HPA?
                                      40:54 - Ray Peat's newsletter, Progest-E from Kenogen, Ray's history with progesterone
                                      45:24 - Why can progesterone fill-in for the adrenals but pregnenolone cannot?
                                      48:14 - Are pregnenolone and progesterone "true" hormones?
                                      49:25 - If someone has a sensitive stomach -- how can they take progest-E?
                                      50:14 - Ray's thoughts on using DHT and testosterone, gynecomastia, finasteride, governing principles of health
                                      55:40 - Is DHT always "safer" than testosterone? Ray's thoughts on TRT
                                      58:34 - What does Ray think of as a "max dose" of aspirin at one time?
                                      01:00:04 - What happens to the agaratine in mushrooms? Does the mushroom water contain agaratine?
                                      01:01:26 - How to distinguish between a fungal and bacterial infection?
                                      01:07:40 - Does Ray prefer pure olive oil over coconut oil for the carrot salad and mushrooms? 1/2 a teaspoon provides a trace of PUFA
                                      01:08:39 - Are fungal infections rarer than bacterial infections?
                                      01:09:20 - H.pylori infection -- how to treat? Thoughts on dosing antibiotics
                                      01:12:41 - The two-week time frame for antibiotic use scientific?
                                      01:13:45 - Is antibiotic resistance important for the individual?
                                      01:14:28 - Does antibiotic use cause a fungal overgrowth?
                                      01:16:05 - Tetracyclines as antifungals? Inflammation predisposes to infection, feeling "uncomfortable" on minocycline
                                      01:19:16 - Danny's experience on minocycline
                                      01:21:46 - Question: why would a virus want to invade a cell?
                                      01:29:28 - Viruses and weakened organisms
                                      01:30:57 - Do viral pandemics exist?
                                      01:36:02 - “...That is, if one pursues any ‘physical’ illness far enough and deep enough, one will find inevitably intrapsychic, intrapersonal, and social variables that are also involved as determinants.” Maslow (1993)
                                      01:38:08 - What's the factor in the environment that's leading to frailty in young people?
                                      01:40:42 - If a group has a problematic "death culture" holy book -- how can a functioning society be maintained?
                                      01:44:54 - Could a holistic view of science be a foundation for a functional society?
                                      01:45:51 - What is the long-term "artificial" struggle between humans?
                                      01:47:10 - Does authoritarianism have anything to do with nature?
                                      01:49:52 - Did the USA peak in the 1950s? The CIA's profound influence on culture
                                      01:54:10 - Is technology a net-negative for sustaining a free culture?
                                      01:55:25 - What about hierarchy in nature? Is it natural to rule over others?
                                      01:57:52 - If an animal's needs were met, would they not express aggression? "Survival of the fittest," Pyotr Kropotkin
                                      02:01:31 - What would be necessary factors to sustain cooperation among individuals?
                                      02:02:44 - What is the most important news event that Ray is thinking about at the moment?
                                      2:03:28 - The road to serfdom, dollar inflation, stock market manipulation
                                      2:05:51 - Has anything become clearer about what will happen when a large portion of the US becomes jobless?
                                      2:06:32 - Polarization in society (left vs. right, man vs. woman, etc.)
                                      2:09:55 - What was the connection between Karl Marx and the Rothschilds?
                                      2:12:07 - Was the 1917 soviet revolution controlled by Zionists?

                                      ““Effective health care depends on self-care” - Ivan Illich, 👀
                                      ☂

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                                      • MauritioM
                                        Mauritio
                                        last edited by Mauritio

                                        I foud Rays newsletter mentioning HSPs. It's called:

                                        "Cumulative damage,
                                        degeneration, & aging possibilities of reversal"

                                        Here's a few relevant quotes:

                                        "...it occurred to me that it
                                        would be good to consider what happens when the body temperature is increased by external heat, beyond the level at which the organism functions optimally. "

                                        "Partly, I’m thinking about the damage
                                        that can be done by the increasing popularity of sauna treatments, and various kinds of “hyperthermic therapy for cancer,”

                                        "Independently, estrogen and nitric oxide are
                                        known to promote fibrosis and cancer, and now the basic role of HSP in fibrosis (Bonniaud, et al.,2017) and cancer is being recognized, and the drug companies are creating a variety of HSP inhibitors."

                                        This quote I included because it's almost poetic and beautiful.

                                        "...time is very relevant to the
                                        organism—its present structure and properties reflect its previous states, and project its future tendencies and possibilities, its trajectory in life."

                                        Now this is the most relevant point, which the studies you posted corroborated so beautifully:

                                        "At bedtime, a mild warm bath can compensate for low internal heat production, increasing the metabolic rate and helping to increase glycogen stores and increase progesterone level, making
                                        deep restorative sleep possible. But if the bath is too warm or too prolonged, or if estrogen’s influence is too great, the increased metabolic rate can
                                        Intensify the inefficient metabolism further depleting energy stores, and leading to higher stress hormones. Having extra carbohydrate before and during the warm bath improves its therapeutic function, and decreases the risk of heat shock."

                                        Dare to think.

                                        My X:
                                        x.com/Metabolicmonstr

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                                        • MauritioM
                                          Mauritio
                                          last edited by Mauritio

                                          Very interesting human study on the effect of 60min. exercise (EX) vs. 60min hot bath at 40°C (PH).

                                          Both were comparable in terms of elevating HSP70, but the elevation wasn't drastic and returned to baseline in about 2h.
                                          The pro-inflammatory cytokine IL6 was elevated a lot more from exercise than the hot bath. So overall a hot bath seems to be safer than I thought and safer than exercise.
                                          1000010090.png

                                          Interestingly just sitting in a hot bath for an hour increased their resting energy expenditure by 79%! That's what they found.

                                          What makes the bath so good for tumors is the increase in temperature.
                                          Both methods were comparable at raising core temperature.
                                          But the bath was a lot better at increasing skin and muscle temperature compared to exericse!
                                          https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5605168/
                                          @cs3000 @DavidPS

                                          Dare to think.

                                          My X:
                                          x.com/Metabolicmonstr

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                                          • cs3000C cs3000 referenced this topic on
                                          • cs3000C
                                            cs3000 @Mauritio
                                            last edited by

                                            replied with more discussion on HSP at https://bioenergetic.forum/post/32387

                                            "world," as a source of new perceptions
                                            more https://substack.com/@cs3001

                                            "Self-organizing systems decay only if they have assimilated inertia and — with a little support of the right kind— the centers of degeneration can become centers of regeneration"

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