Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists
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Yerrag says
I'm just glad I never have to deal with oxalate issues. I don't even think I've heard of anyone in my circles in the Philippines ever mentioning a problem with oxalates. Then again, it may be that it exists and that our doctors and healers here are just unaware of it.
=> The estimated known incidence of hyperoxaluria is between 1-2/10 000 000 per year with no differences between sexes. There are higher rates reported in isolated populations, especially in the Middle East and North Africa.
Note: I haven’t heard HAS reported the incidence of these problems. Underestimated.
HAS = Haute autorité de santé / High authority for health.(…)
It's a nice effort but a lot of value that I expect to get from health forums is the pooling of successful experiences in fixing a health problem common to many in the hope of being able to start with a hypothesis of how a health issue is cured and end with the hypothesis being validated. This has not been happening at all.
=> I agree that waiting for testimony from experienced case reports would be the optimal choice. But the forum won’t be very animated, supposing the individuals could clearly explained the etiology and how they cured. When you feel foggy, having problems to concentrate and discern the accessory from the essential is difficult. Then you should still be able to report facts, clarifying the context, without digressions on latterly symptoms. Might as well dream, most of the time.(…)
While I applaud your earnest efforts to aggregate information, I wish there are more among us that don't just come to the forum to learn something only, but to share something of value that comes from good research, and thinking and connecting the dots, and applying this synthesis into their own context, and sharing true successes in healing themselves.
=> Yes, it would be fine.
Would you say the same from CM or RP when talking about sth they see / learn / analyze? No, of course. They often report on what they have experienced or seen.
Do you think there are many experts who spend time on the internet answering questions following a published article or a report on the consultations? Shortly after yes. And afterwards? They do exist but they are only known and accessible by a minority.(…)
Most of us here face their healing journey with the path laid out by modern pharma without realizing that path leads to a dead end. Relying on single compounds as a magic bullet is one example.
Healing is like cooking. You can't just mix a few ingredients together and heat and serve a nice dish. There is a process that makes a dish good, just as you need a process for healing to really happen.
Instead, we can be likened to a bunch of groupies flocking to listen to a rock star. And all the rockstar does is to tell us take this take that. In this sense, there is really not much of a difference to seeing a regular doctor where all he does is dish out a prescription that also says take this and take that.
=> I understand your deception.
Note: Knowing how to listen is already valuable. Discerning or trying to circumscribe a problem with a view to directing you to a health practitioner if appropriate would be welcome.
Should we throw the baby out with the bathwater because the situation is not optimal? No, of course, provided there are safeguards. That’s another problem.
Please, do not answer, except if you don’t agree or see a problem with the initial post about how to manage to avoid hyperoxaluria. Thanks for comprehension. -
A reply of word salad.
At RPF, you made little sense.
At bioenergetic, same same, but with more words courtesy of your heavy use of AI.
In both forums, it seems you know very little of Ray Peat and hardly mention him or principles of bioenergetics.
Have you shared any personal experience in healing that comes from experience? As opposed to lifting it from your research?
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I have just read the randomized study on the concomitant taking of Ca and Vit D. you posted. Interesting. Thanks.
I’ll come back soon to give a report because there are biases. The author recognizes that there are “gaps” in certain studies (some parameters being not mentioned or forgotten) but he draws conclusions, even though it is well known that a higher dosage Ca should not be taken above 1000/1200 mg. In addition, the authors did not take into account all the activation factors (vitamin K2) or factors that soften/temper the effects of high dose Vit D (thanks to vitamin A, retinol).But as you could read it, from one influent and insightful (?) forumer, the latter attributes me a copycat reasoning (IA) and a lack of knowledge of RP literature. I agree to concede to him that he has a better grasp / understanding of the “philosophy” of RP’s writings. My knowledge is only partial. And I maintain a certain independence. Too long to explain why here. And I don't really want to argue (sterile and unpleasant).
By the way, my forum has been existing for more than 10 years, and AI is only available from 2 years, less here in Europe.No hard feelings, but the one_whose_name _I _won't _mention has just dropped in my esteem.
What a pity! But hey, I can admit that we all have bad days, except that it's not his first time, when he has someone in his sights.
NB: I intended first to analyze the whole study but I won't do it now. Guess why ... -
@LucH said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
I have just read the randomized study on the concomitant taking of Ca and Vit D. you posted. Interesting. Thanks.
I’ll come back soon to give a report because there are biases. The author recognizes that there are “gaps” in certain studies (some parameters being not mentioned or forgotten) but he draws conclusions, even though it is well known that a higher dosage Ca should not be taken above 1000/1200 mg. In addition, the authors did not take into account all the activation factors (vitamin K2) or factors that soften/temper the effects of high dose Vit D (thanks to vitamin A, retinol).But as you could read it, from one influent and insightful (?) forumer, the latter attributes me a copycat reasoning (IA) and a lack of knowledge of RP literature. I agree to concede to him that he has a better grasp / understanding of the “philosophy” of RP’s writings. My knowledge is only partial. And I maintain a certain independence. Too long to explain why here. And I don't really want to argue (sterile and unpleasant).
By the way, my forum has been existing for more than 10 years, and AI is only available from 2 years, less here in Europe.No hard feelings, but the one_whose_name _I _won't _mention has just dropped in my esteem.
What a pity! But hey, I can admit that we all have bad days, except that it's not his first time, when he has someone in his sights.
NB: I intended first to analyze the whole study but I won't do it now. Guess why ...It's very hard to understand the workings of the body in general, let alone the unique state each of us are in, and what it would take to truly help and rejuvenate us to a better state, one that would objectively take us over the threshold from subpar to flourishing. So, I keep an open mind — and as you know by now, ask a lot of questions. For those of us who are not doctors or scientists, we wing it and go with the anecdotal experiences of ourselves and others, as well as doing our due diligence in research and gaining more expert knowledge. So, I don't expect all that I read on forums will be the last word and the best advice. But hopefully at some point our understanding will grow and our hunches and educated guesses will lead to more reliable and fruitful results.
"To desire action is to desire limitation" — G. K. Chesterton
"The true step of health and improvement is slow." — Novalis -
Thanks for treating me like a god, where you can't call me by my name. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong, but I'll do the tango with you as you sashay with in our tete a tete.
Very likely I could be wrong seeing you develop into a much better poster this year in this new forum, as compared to your RPF self. Perhaps I'm the only one to take notice. As you are getting replies noted with thankfulness for answers that are truly helpful. I would be lying if I didn't say you were a different person in your stint at RPF, where you were incoherent. You are now more armed with citations whereas you were more like me in RPF in lacking references. As my weakness is in citing research citations given it slows me down.
Yet I suspect you use AI in doing your research, which makes you appear more thorough with lists, but the tradeoff is it has the hallmark weakness of AI where it lacks the ability to assign weight to what is more important and relevant. And this becomes a liability when it comes to finding the one answer needed to solve a problem posed.
If I were a poster in search of an answer, I would have difficulty finding the piece de resistance when I am given a buffet instead of the maitre d'hotel suggesting to me the specialty dish a restaurant is known for.
And that is my pet peeve with you. You are like a maitre d' that hasn't had a taste of the dishes asked recommending a dish.
But you try your best but you're like an author that writes from vicarious experiences instead of having undergone the true discovery and emotions and thrill of having lived through an actual experience with it's peaks and valleys.
It doesn't matter if you've had 10 years of running another health forum. One look at Charlie and you know that it means little.
It's alright if the forum isn't acculturated to stick with everything Ray Peat and bioenergetics, but it's still necessary to have the identity that starts and ends with the idea that all diseases are metabolic in origin. It's an idea that for beginners would seem fantastic, but as one sticks long enough to see the successes he himself would experience in improving his health, he would see the wisdom I'm that idea. Even in a world seemingly bombarded with toxins and infections and trauma physical and psychological.
If one is convinced of that foundational thought, one would approach bioenergetics like Ray approached it, seeking that thread of coherence to put disparate concepts in alignment and in a unity that allows us to connect dots. In so doing, we see what needs to be done in ourselves to bring our health to where we no longer are fixing endless petty small fires that look insurmountable in and of themselves, but are actually developing ourselves to a better organism and a better species.
It would be nice if your contributions could bring us closer to coherence with Ray's overarching mission as lived by him, rather than make us more perplexed in facing the multitudes of lies and half-truths set up to keep us helpless. If I have to be direct, stop with needlessly helter skelter pulling up research that bears little earnestness in advancing truth to our less discerning minds.
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@LucH I watched Sally Norton speak. She wrote a book on oxalates. I don't think she talked about food pairing or adding minerals, just oxalate avoidance.
It's good to have another take on the topic. I've started eating cheese with high oxalate foods.
Ty
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@Insomniac said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
It's good to have another take on the topic. I've started eating cheese with high oxalate foods.
That's the right attitude. However, people who don't like Greek yoghurt, white cheese or Gouda (Vit K2 for the latter), eating round 800 mg Ca the day long is still adequate (from food), according to one study I read (=> 40 40 720 mg Ca). Not optimal but OK. The study did not find a problem, but it was over a fairly short period, I think. People not at risk.
To be reminded: broccoli and oat are rich in Ca. Just to vary.
When I eat spinach with mashed potato, I add 1.5 tsp raw butter and 1 tbp coconut oil and one egg yolk or the full egg.
And as I am careful (I've got one CaOx 5 years ago) (I sometimes speak from experience, without expressly specifying it) I care for it through my day log. I correct it with the evening meal or 1 hour before bedtime with a shake, if necessary. -
@Mossy said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
I keep an open mind — and as you know by now, ask a lot of questions.
I've be discussing the link you gave there:
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2064-why-the-odd-with-calcium-recommendation#29866
Why weird recommendations about calcium supplement?
Introduction
I had an interesting discussion with Mossy on Bioenergetics Forum about oxalates problems.
“Clearing up the confusion about oxalate lists”
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/3165/clearing-up-the-confusion-about-oxalate-lists/15
But as I'm not in the best position there to speak freely, I decided to post here, to better control the deviations and digressions. -
L LucH referenced this topic on
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@LucH said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
@Mossy said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
I keep an open mind — and as you know by now, ask a lot of questions.
I've be discussing the link you gave there:
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2064-why-the-odd-with-calcium-recommendation#29866
Why weird recommendations about calcium supplement?
Introduction
I had an interesting discussion with Mossy on Bioenergetics Forum about oxalates problems.
“Clearing up the confusion about oxalate lists”
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/3165/clearing-up-the-confusion-about-oxalate-lists/15
But as I'm not in the best position there to speak freely, I decided to post here, to better control the deviations and digressions.I will take a look as time allows. Thank you.
"To desire action is to desire limitation" — G. K. Chesterton
"The true step of health and improvement is slow." — Novalis -
I have a word of caution about such aggregation of research. Knowing the source of recommendations would be very helpful. Not knowing but relying on their word on account of the putative wisdom and pedigree of such research based on titles is risky business, distracting you from finding an actual solution.
One of the doctors cited there, for example, is Carolyn Dean, whose advice to avoid or minimize calcium intake is really ignorant. Without any qualification, her low calcium dosage recommendation leads people to become osteoporotic. She says high calcium leads to calcification. We know she is half right only at best. Because high calcium intake leads to calcification only for the hypothyroid peeps. She lacks understanding of this.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@yerrag Hi Yerrag,
I appreciate your concern, and I think to a large degree you're justified in voicing it. For words simply published on the wild west of the internet shouldn't just be swallowed blind. Given my history of poor health and many years of trial and error with supplements, with about a 1% success rate — no matter who the advice comes from — I remain fairly open to various positions. If something is too outlandish it will usually stick out to me, and I do attempt to use Peat as a measuring rod against what I read. Though, sometimes I will stray from that where it might make sense to do so. I welcome your caution and comments, and will take them to heart as I venture forward in my healing quest.
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@yerrag said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
If one is convinced of that foundational thought, one would approach bioenergetics like Ray approached it, seeking that thread of coherence to put disparate concepts in alignment and in a unity that allows us to connect dots. In so doing, we see what needs to be done in ourselves to bring our health to where we no longer are fixing endless petty small fires that look insurmountable in and of themselves, but are actually developing ourselves to a better organism and a better species.
This is a neat thread. I've been wondering about oxalates and oxalic acid for a while. It started when I was reading Peat 1-2 years ago and tried eating a salad. The salad made my stomach hurt for the night and some the following day. Romaine lettuce and/or spinach or other greens I think. I tried it again a few other times, and each time I tried a salad it was really upsetting my stomach. It's funny how salads are worshipped as a health food, but I don't remember reading anything about salad/greens in Peat's writings except for some comments about phytoestrogens and probably oxalates or sulfurs in cruciferous veggies.
If other people can eat it, great. But I'm convinced there's something going on with oxalic acid/oxalates in fresh greens like these. Of course it could be pesticides and other things given industrialized agriculture, but I'm not sure. Most fruit I eat settles well.
On the theme of "coherence" that's what I find interesting. Common wisdom in these times is leading people astray and into darkness as a feature, not a bug, of institutional authoritarianism... anyways, the idea being something like "greens are a super food and good for you." It's the same logic guiding "seed oils are good and heart-healthy." "Nuts have omega-3s and these protect your brain."
If salads are good for one person, fine, but it's a fact for me that almost every "health" food I tried eating regularly left me cold, tired, irritated, etc. I guess it's also a feature of the Peatarian opposition that most of us probably seem like culinary pariahs to those unaware of the cultural dietary inversions going on.
I see the real insanity when so-called experts criticize fruit as "sugar" or "empty carbs." Morons! Sure, don't be a fruitarian, but imagine the vitality awaiting people who started replacing pufa-slop with grapes, apples, dates, oranges, and good fruit. It's unnerving to see the simple solutions don't work I think partly because an addict doesn't simply quit heroin because sobriety is better.I know that PUFA / SAD foods are addictive as most processed food is designed to be addictive. Is there anything published on pufa withdrawal, or pufa-deprivation causing stress?
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@Corngold said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
On the theme of "coherence" that's what I find interesting. Common wisdom in these times is leading people astray and into darkness as a feature, not a bug, of institutional authoritarianism... anyways, the idea being something like "greens are a super food and good for you." It's the same logic guiding "seed oils are good and heart-healthy." "Nuts have omega-3s and these protect your brain."
So much money has been spent on the wrong "healthful foods" that I used to wonder each time I go to a health food store I began to notice many customers lacking the radiant youthful glow and instead see aging in dry wrinkly facial skin and naturally unkempt and tangled white hair in these stores. It's not a place I'd go to cheer me up with the sight of good looking healthy people not filled with raging hormones.
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@yerrag
Well said.
Even a certain hippie co-op used to sell raw milk, at least I think it was raw because there was like an inch of cream on the top and my goodness...best milk I've ever had. But then the rest of their wares are vegan or eastern veggies and herbs
As for your observation about visible signs of health...
that's an interesting topic.Even the people who eat a lot of pufa, for them to be healthy, it seems like they're generally excited about life. But that's rare. I rarely see or know of anyone who has energy and enjoyment in life who also eats heavy PUFA, processed foods. And, as you said, many people who follow keto / vegetarian-ish food-ways I feel are generally unstable energetically.
Not exactly the right thread but:
Have you heard of these two things? Maybe you can help or I could start a new thread.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Longevity_Project
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study
The latter one is interesting, in that the author, T. Colin Cambell, claims dairy and meat are driving heart disease, cancer, diabetes, etc.
This would be similar to the "Pure, White, Deadly" Yudkin book/thesis that "sugar bad." In one book, he strengthened an anti-meat anti-dairy agenda. I'm sure it's connected in some way to WEF / Gates / CFR type funding to lay the psychological groundwork for de-growth and destruction of farms.Since Peat was apparently hip to China and Communism, I wonder why he never talked about this book?
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@Corngold said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
Since Peat was apparently hip to China and Communism, I wonder why he never talked about this book?
I think it's about economy. I like that he never preached about organic. It's already known to people that organic is good, and him talking about it does less than him talking about the dangers the "organic crowd" are frequently not aware of. Such as sugar is not evil. And PUFA is not all healthful.
He also prefers to talk about under the radar but toxic substances involving persorption and toxins such as endotoxins. And soluble fiber not being the right answer to poor bowel movement, but adequate magnesium stores. -
I don't know, yerrag. He did hours of shows with Roddy & Dinkov, where they got in the weeds in terms of politics, finance, conspiracy, and other "fear-mongering" for lack of a batter term.
All I'm saying is I remember this stuff, "Forks Over Knives," Michael Pollan, and the big food/health complex existing for years before like 2020.
I believe he did mention it a few times, or commented on it or similar Chinese studies.
https://bioenergetic.life/?q=china+study
Anyways, it's just strange to me, given that I would expect him to want to defend meat and dairy, generally, and possibly find where the study went wrong in their assumptions (if it did!). I wonder if soy feed is the culprit as far as how pork and cows are being fed. The overconsumption of protein cuts and dairy could in fact be bad. But, the study was in 1983.
I wonder if the areas in question were electrified yet following Firstenberg's observations of electricity and cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc. But, once again, I sense that pufa oil and soy feed, rural diets, and electricity are all acting in concert around the time of the study.
This paper seems to have some info on rural electrification of China.
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@yerrag said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
organic is good, and him talking about it does less than him talking about the dangers the "organic crowd" are frequently not aware of. Such as sugar is not evil. And PUFA is not all healthful.
Only issue I have is that "organic" I think is fairly fraudulent. I think it's been shown by many people that the products are either the same, or differ only in very slight variations in production... i.e., grass being thrown to indoor dairy cows, the grass probably being tainted and sprayed anyways; things like this. It's a money-grab.
I agree with your other points. I still wonder about the difference between walnut pufa and canola oil pufa; it seems inaccurate saying walnuts are just as damaging as canola oil. That said, I usually get mouth sores and irritation eating walnuts or almonds and therefore avoid them.
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@Corngold said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:
I don't know, yerrag. He did hours of shows with Roddy & Dinkov, where they got in the weeds in terms of politics, finance, conspiracy, and other "fear-mongering" for lack of a batter term.
All I'm saying is I remember this stuff, "Forks Over Knives," Michael Pollan, and the big food/health complex existing for years before like 2020.
I believe he did mention it a few times, or commented on it or similar Chinese studies.
https://bioenergetic.life/?q=china+study
Anyways, it's just strange to me, given that I would expect him to want to defend meat and dairy, generally, and possibly find where the study went wrong in their assumptions (if it did!). I wonder if soy feed is the culprit as far as how pork and cows are being fed. The overconsumption of protein cuts and dairy could in fact be bad. But, the study was in 1983.
I wonder if the areas in question were electrified yet following Firstenberg's observations of electricity and cancer, diabetes, heart disease, etc. But, once again, I sense that pufa oil and soy feed, rural diets, and electricity are all acting in concert around the time of the study.
This paper seems to have some info on rural electrification of China.
I don't expect Peat to dip his toes into every nook and cranny. Just too many bugs and vermins to be dealing with. Best to narrow one's scope, and that's what Peat has done. You can't be Atlas and carry all the world in your shoulder. Still, even by narrowing his scope, his message easily gets watered down.
He hates behind defined and pigeonholed by the term Ray Peat Diet because that has the connotations of a one size fit all approach, and he loathes such an approach because context is key.
I think he isn't one to want his brand diluted by being just like the others who lack his coherence in messaging.
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