After diet, exercise and sleep, using a sauna may be of the best things for health

DavidPS

Finland allegedly has more saunas than it has people. Surprisingly, Finland does not have an increased lifespan compared to its neighbors.

List of countries by life expectancy

oliveoil

There are many types of sauna, which is the most beneficial in your opinion?

Traditional sauna (low humidity)
Steam sauna
Infrared sauna
Far infrared sauna

DavidPS

@oliveoil - For me, the best sauna is the one that you will use on a regular basis. In addition, access to a traditional sauna or a steam sauna is very expensive overall time.

I purchased a far infrared sauna (FIR) in 2013 and I have not used it in a few years. That is about to change.

For me, the idea is to activate the heat shock proteins within the body. The range of 800nm to 1 millimeter includes both portions of both near infrared (NIR) and IR.

The image below shows that as the wavelengths move into the longer ranges of NIR that the depth of IR penetration starts to decrease. This is because the longer wavelengths excite the water in the tissue.

FIR has wavelengths that are longer. FIR is so effective at heating water in human tissue that it makes one sweat and release toxins. This the heating 'mechanism' behind FIR heating pads and FIR saunas. FIR does not penetrate more deeply than NIR, it just make the tissues so hot that it feels like it does.

I see that Amazon.com sells infra red blankets which can be stored under a bed. For me, the most easily accessible is the best.

DavidPS

User: are saunas safe

Peatbot: The context provided discusses the use of saunas, particularly infrared saunas, and suggests that they can be beneficial for detoxification and heart health. It mentions that saunas can help the body to detoxify by promoting sweating, which can lead to the excretion of heavy metals and other toxins through urine and possibly feces. Additionally, there are references to studies indicating that saunas may improve heart health, potentially prolonging survival in sick heart patients and having anti-aging effects on arteries.

However, the context does not explicitly address the safety of saunas. Generally, saunas are considered safe for most people when used properly, but there are some precautions to consider:

Hydration: It's important to stay hydrated before and after using a sauna to replace fluids lost through sweating.
Duration: Limiting the time spent in a sauna is advisable, typically around 15-30 minutes, to avoid overheating.
Medical Conditions: Individuals with certain medical conditions, such as heart problems or low blood pressure, should consult a healthcare professional before using a sauna.
Pregnancy: Pregnant women should seek medical advice before using a sauna.
Supervision: It's safer to use a sauna with someone else present, especially if you are new to sauna use.

If you have specific health concerns or conditions, it's best to consult with a healthcare provider to determine if sauna use is safe for you.

cs3000

@DavidPS Yeah looks great for heart arrythmias, mood/depression, diabetes, tumors, wounds etc. i got a portable sauna (pop up tent thing with a steamer).
exercise benefits outside of muscle traits are basically coming from it raising core temp by the looks of it. can get similar benefits in poor health (& some on muscle too) without the exercise by raising temp to 38 & sustaining for a bit with a bath / sauna

Gonna raise temp to 38 - 39 degrees for 20 minutes & 1-2 days between sessions. in the evening. with 40g sugar 30 mins before sessions to use during the metabolism boost. acute benefits last through the next day sometimes 48 hrs, heat shock protein is up for a while after

Serotoninskeptic

@DavidPS ive recently started using a homemade sauna. Setup a tent. Place a bench and two fryers filled with water. Under $100 and quite effective. Got the idea from anabology

DavidPS

@cs3000 - It sounds like a great plan for health. I will be using a sauna most days now that the weather is cooler where I live. Finnish saunas are safe and I think my IR sauna is also safe.

Finnish sauna bathing does not increase or decrease the risk of cancer in men: A prospective cohort study

I will sauna in the morning. I believe it works better with our circadian rhyme.

DavidPS

@Serotoninskeptic = It is a great plan. Keep the cost as low as practical.

Serotoninskeptic

@DavidPS I recommend heavily

sneedful

saunas are awesome

Luke

Interesting that they compare it to 2-3x a week and not never. I guess the benefits of 1-3 times a week to never are pretty good as well.

I tried sauna years ago, but it was very stressful to my body. I felt relaxed afterwards, but could never sleep at night (even if the sauna was before midday). Maybe it comes with more time. Steam bath was fine, though.

DavidPS

@Luke -That is a good point.

I had trouble reconciling the benefits of activating heat shock proteins and the lack of an increase in longevity (in Finland).

Peatbot: Heat shock proteins (HSPs) play a complex role in cellular health. They are a type of stress protein that help protect cells from damage by stabilizing proteins and refolding misfolded proteins. This function is crucial during times of stress, such as heat, oxidative stress, or other environmental challenges, as it helps cells survive by maintaining protein integrity.

However, the context provided suggests that while HSPs are protective in the short term, their activation can lead to a shift in cellular metabolism towards a more stress-like or cancer-like state, characterized by reduced energy production and increased lactic acid metabolism. This shift can be detrimental in the long term, as it may lead to a loss of cellular function and flexibility, similar to the formation of a scar.

Moreover, HSPs are associated with the stabilization and reinforcement of estrogen effects, which can lead to dedifferentiation and increased cell division, processes that are not always beneficial, especially in the context of cancer.

In summary, while heat shock proteins are essential for immediate cellular protection and survival under stress, their prolonged activation or overexpression can contribute to unhealthy cellular states and may be implicated in aging and disease processes.

Ray Peat 2021 news letter explains this in greater detail.
https://wiki.chadnet.org/files/cumulative-damage-degeneration-and-aging-possibilities-of-reversal.pdf

Milk Destroyer

@DavidPS Finland also is the 7th highest country in Europe for SSRI consumption

cs3000

@Mauritio @davidps
(replying to https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/2224/studies-showing-cancer-reversal-shrinking/2)

Hmm ty so ray was ok with heating for short times and if supported with carb intake before to prevent excess stress and boost gains from the metabolism increase,
if someones getting lightheaded / dizzy during & fatigued after this its a sign of pushing it excessively

but he also didnt like the heat shock proteins generally, basically saying cells are put in a limited protective state lowering capacity to produce energy. which fits with the anti metabolic things activating them mentions of estrogen nitric oxide, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28903474/

" The HSP chaperone function can slow the degradation
of proteins under stress; if the HSPs were to be
named in the present, they could be called “energy deprivation stabilizing proteins." "Although the increased HSP can save the cells’
or organism’s life, it degrades oxidative energy production and metabolic efficiency. HSP are involved in the induction of dormancy or torpor in organisms ranging from the cellular slime mold Dictyostelium, to mammals"

{i did notice this lasting torpor effect from hitting 39.1 degrees, sign i pushed it too much}

but thats odd seeing so many benefits of body heating,

So maybe the heat shock proteins are not generally beneficial but generally the ATP & co2 boosts from the sessions outweigh negative effects from the hsp?

here effects of heating mice + 2 degrees core temp on mitochondria complex activities in muscle , nice improvements regardless of stress hormones & hsp rising

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpregu.00525.2013?rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org

(+1.5 degrees thru exercise vs 2.1 degrees through heating, probs sustained 20 mins)

^ this doesn't fit with rays take on these, also his mentions of loss of muscle mass in aging being related to hsp but there they gained muscle just by heating regardless

For fibrosis + heat shock protein part idk about effects of elevating over baseline but at least during muscle injury when HSP lowers below baseline, heating = faster recovery + with less scarring
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10717209/

so in that human study u posted they elevated very mildly +0.5 to +1 degree over 30 mins for a decent boost, and like u said heat stress proteins went back down quick (they only tested for a short time, but maybe the mild heat doesnt cause longer term changes like going higher)

Elevating core temp to 39 (through exercise but designed in a way to not cause muscle damage), weirdly the HSP got peak elevation by 2 days after and sustained similar levels for a week https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00046.2006?rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org

Mauritio

@cs3000

@cs3000 said in After diet, exercise and sleep, using a sauna may be of the best things for health:

which fits with the anti metabolic things activating them mentions of estrogen nitric oxide,

Yes and the pro-metabolic things lowering them: progesterone, tetracyclines, selenium, methylene blue, ...

@cs3000 said in After diet, exercise and sleep, using a sauna may be of the best things for health:

here effects of heating mice + 2 degrees core temp on mitochondria complex activities in muscle , nice improvements regardless of stress hormones & hsp rising

Yes I suspect that as well. As I posted the effect on HSP is not large and fairly transient, which I'm not sure about for the mitochondrial effects. So maybe the ETC and metabolism in general benefits for a longer time.

@cs3000 said in After diet, exercise and sleep, using a sauna may be of the best things for health:

Elevating core temp to 39 (through exercise but designed in a way to not cause muscle damage), weirdly the HSP got peak elevation by 2 days after and sustained similar levels for a week

Wow that's weird.
I suspect HSP would not be elevated as long when the body temp is increased to that level via passive heating.
Ray said years ago that most of exercises benefits stem from the increase in temperature and you could get that from a warm bath. And looks like he was right.

DavidPS

Mauritio

This study showed weight loss and better glycemic control in most type 2 diabetes patients. One patient lost 7kg of body weight in just 3 weeks, so there seem to responder and non responder as well.
They were sitting in a hot tub for 30 minutes everyday.

GreekDemiGod

What about testicular/ reproductive health? I read that sauna is not advised for when wanting to conceive a baby. The high temperature potentially damaging Leydig cells and testosterone production.
In people with varicocele (increased testicular temperature), I don’t think it’s recommended

Jakeandpace

I suspect like most things that it is healthy up to a certain point. As long as you don't bleed into fat metabolism when doing sauna it is probably very beneficial. I wouldn't use it as a substitute for moderate exercise though but rather an adjunct to it.

Jakeandpace

@GreekDemiGod If you bring an icepack for your balls the problem is avoidable. Still a problem nonetheless for those not doing so