Patrick Arnold's Prohormones
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@jamezb46 do you think there will be another Patrick Arnold ? Seems like since the millennia, there has been no interest in discovering new steroid hormones…. perhaps this is justified. We have all the tools necessary, introducing a patented steroid hormone will probably due more harm than good. Allopregnenolone and Fluasterone are the only recent steroids under investigation that come to mind.
Any further research into steroid hormones clinical application is put into non steroidal drugs that selectively activate or block receptors in different tissues or inhibit enzymes such as 11b HSD.
Is there perhaps a current chemist researching and releasing new SARMs? That would be cool.
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@jamezb46
Not about his prohormones, but the other things he sells:
The way he describes ursolic acid (the Ur spray product) makes it appear powerful and wholesome and a much better choice than all that SR9009, RAD140, cardarine etc. stuff.
But if it really contains c. 249mg per recommended daily transdermal dose that is way more than the <4mg daily which Mauritio and cs3000 had figured out, although its effectiveness could perhaps follow an inverted bell curve, and the topical (trans)dermal route may cause less systemic effects:
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/1797/ursolic-acid-anti-serotonin-anti-estrogen-pro-dopamine-and-more
The raw ingredient is comparatively cheap as I can find 1kg of 98% ursolic acid for about $25. That's 11years of 250mg daily. Or >900years of 3mg daily.
A little surprising to see that he sells BHB(-K?) spray for fat loss. I don't doubt that it could be effective, as I've noticed healing effects by topical butyrate (if mixed into a suitable cream or solution; there are also unsuitable body lotions). Anyhow, that would imply effects predominantly on the skin and subcutanous fat deposits. -
@CrumblingCookie the BHB is a dietary supplement not a spray
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The problem with the reasoning that 4mg of oral ursolic acid is effective is that ursolic acid is not bioavailable. It doesn’t solubilize in stomach acid and it isn’t readily absorbed.
If the 4mg per day was calculated from an in-vitro study, that represents a fatal flaw. The issue with ursolic acid is absorption. That is why petri dish studies may not translate to equivalent oral doses.
The Ursolic acid in the Ur-spray product is Arginine Ursolic Acetate. That is a synthetic derivative that Arnold invented as far as I know.
No other company I am aware of sells it. It is soluble and thus will absorb through the skin.
Keep in mind I am no Patrick Arnold shill, but with that product specifically, there is some nuance and it is known that standard ursolic acid does not absorb transdermally or orally.
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@alfredoolivas Ah, yes. I'll just wait for the raw powder then to spoon-feed on.
@jamezb46 Thanks for your clarification. I hadn't known about his Arginine Ursolic Acetate specialty. So regular ursolic acid would mainly exert only indirect systemic effects via its intraluminal workings in the GIS. Which may be powerful, but a different ball game.
Have you already tried any of these products like the Ur, 11KT or 11OXO? -
It's my understanding that regular Ursolic acid would not exert any effects. Perhaps it can disrupt bacteria in the gut but I don't think it's getting absorbed.
I have not tried any of his products yet. If I had to go with one I would actually go with the D-Serine for the mental effects.
Like I indicated in the OP, I think that 11-Keto-4-Androstenediol would be a highly effective oral prohormone.
The only problem is that it doesn't exist. It is found in tiny amounts in animals but AFAIK no one has synthesized it into a supplement.
But for the reasons I presented, it should be a quite efficient precursor to 11-KT orally in humans.
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The point of this post is not to propose some new fancy end-point androgen.
We already have highly effective AAS, and we don't need new ones.
The point of this post is to point out that, despite appearances to the contrary, the door to prohormones sold as legal, dietary supplements IS NOT closed.
The 11-keto-4-androstenediol should be legal and highly effective as an oral precursor to 11-KT.
THe key is in the marketing. If it is marketed as "anti-cortisol" "adrenal support" it should not be declared illegal by FDA.
The additional anabolic control act laws passed in the early 2000's have to do with analogues to androgens that are marketed for muscle building.
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@alfredoolivas do no harm and due no harm are both correct ... somehow..
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I had a friend who took an OTC 1-AD+4-AD product in the early 2000s and he blew up on that stuff. It was the real deal for sure. With the oral delivery I don't know how long it lasted in the system though. It might have been a twice daily dosing regimen.
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For anyone interested, here's an interview with Patrick Arnold "the man behind DMAA, The Clear, and many other drugs that permanently changed the world of body building and competitive sports."
