Thymus health
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@Mauritio
the fgf21 is largely through mtor , (rapamycin abolished effect)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39972173/
still hindered when on low protein with the increase so yeah guess its weaker more of a support (when they knocked out fgf21 in the young mice in study you posted their thymocyte numbers didnt change). something can happen in aging with mtor signalling still high but fails to create anabolic response i guess need boththis one affected thymus of young mice sort of, in some composition changes. and showed fgf21 is maintained high in thymus regardless of regular eating (protein intake)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-00349-8
(also a bit in the liver , because these 2 are always vulnerable needing protection & to regenerate more & more often)Its a pretty wide comparison , i'd guess ~60g protein wouldnt show a loss. or adding some leucine
@cs3000 said in Thymus health:
~35grams daily gave a way smaller thymus vs 125grams protein daily with extra carbs replacing the lost protein,87% lower thymus weight from 35g protein
Not sure how to make sense of the above two statements . Other than low protein seems to be more detrimental than FGF21 os beneficial for thymus health.
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@cs3000 said in Thymus health:
the fgf21 is largely through mtor , (rapamycin abolished effect)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39972173/
still hindered when on low protein with the increase so yeah guess its weaker more of a support (when they knocked out fgf21 in the young mice in study you posted their thymocyte numbers didnt change). something can happen in aging with mtor signalling still high but fails to create anabolic response i guess need boththis one affected thymus of young mice sort of, in some composition changes. and showed fgf21 is maintained high in thymus regardless of regular eating (protein intake)
Makes sense!
It seems that FGF21 can up or down regulate mtor depending on tissues.In this study FGF21 lowered mtor in the liver
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26926384/And in this study in cancer cells it lowered it as well.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7985321And the strong expression of FGF21 in thymus tissue is a brilliant adaption of the body to a low protein diet. Since low protein weakens immunity via lowered mtor, but it strongly increases FGF21 in thymus which activates mtor locally and improves immunity.
But it's wild how big the difference in FGF21 is between different tissues! Nothing comes close to the thymus.
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10-HDA from Royal jelly restores thymus health in immunosuppressed mice.
Dosage was quite high . HED~ 30-60g
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The negative effects of androgens on thymus health, Sometimes observed, are medicated through the Glucocorticoids receptor.
Maybe aromatization of testosterone,/ estrogen activates it."The androgen-induced thymic involution was dependent on GC action, because this was completely absent in mice lacking GC receptor (GR) expression specifically in thymocytes. We provide here an unrecognized mechanism how androgens contribute to thymic involution by stimulating local synthesis and release of GCs in the thymus."
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@TexugoDoMel, thanks for the tables. Interesting, indeed.
Do you have a reference paper for the tables? -
Folate deficiency might be bad for thymus health
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1673889/ -
Thymus info hitting the mainstream:
*T cells of the immune system are responsible for the establishment of self-tolerance and adaptive immune function. T cells come from the thymus, which is mammals basically disappears early in life in a process called involution.
Understanding how the thymus might regenerate has been a goal of immunology for a very long time. A paper in Science (paywall) represents a fundamental advance in the basic science of vertebrate thymus development and regeneration*
More info at the linked website.
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@BioEclectic there's like zero actionable info at that summary of the study,, it is just some high-tier midwit posting some le science based complex mechanisms findings. Georgi posted studies already showing something as simple as dhea, glucose, vitamin d, nutritional/caloric abundance regenerates it, what you posted offers an illustration of midwit subconscious willing ignorance of obvious therapies
even the actual study listed makes reference to the metformin, dhea, and hgh study that Georgi posted about, and conveniently when talking about it, leaves out the part about DHEA being involved. interestingly, Georgi, in his own summary, literally unironically said that the actual study itself is funny because it's likely dhea that had the restorative effects and hgh and metformin probably weren't necessary.
midwit le science experts tend to always do this, talk about subjects as being complex and hard to figure out, while totally ignoring the parts in the research that show, actually, it isn't that difficult
but axolotls are cute so its ok
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@sunsunsun unecessary crash out.
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@alfredoolivas it seemed necessary
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@beriberi I have heard it's that time of the month for her.
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They gave the absurdly high amount of 120mg daily Thymosin 1 alpha (TA1, a major natural thymic peptide that has become widely available for purchase) for the first three months.
Results are very impressive, however.
That'll be the difference between live and death for many.Among the T-cell populations, CD3+ and CD4+ and the CD4+/CD8+ ratio markedly improved in the treatment group and the Th17 markedly decreased:
As far as I can comprehend, the synthetic Khavinson dipeptide Thymogen (L-Glu-L-Trp, a constituent of its preceding calf thymus extract "Thymalin") stimulates the thymus per se for its regeneration over the mid- and long term. The official treatment guidance for thymogen is 7 days of 100mcg s.c./i.m. once a month to a maximum of 4 times per year.
Whereas the popular peptide Thymosin 1 alpha is a natural product of a healthy and young thymus and shows immediate effects that reportedly quickly wane when stopped. Common doses hover about 1.5mg s.c./i.m. every day.
Nevertheless, the study above clearly shows some positive feedback mechanisms on thymus function by serial and long term application of TA1.
As a little side-quest of unknown significance wrt to the detrimental effects of testosterone aromatization / estrogens on the thymus:
Upper thorax application of topical DHT gel, because of its anti-estrogenic and anti-aromatase activity, should then the the wisest place to choose, rather than arms or shoulders?@Lejeboca said in Thymus health:
Estrogen Blocks Early T Cell Development in the Thymus
@TexugoDoMel said in Thymus health:
Just adding a little more on the hormonal aspect
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@CrumblingCookie those peptide doses aren't absurd, just that the doses pushed online are really low. some peptides are studied via IV infusions at like a hundred mg a day in small animals. people dose thymosin b4 1-43 at like 2mg every 3 days when the studies in animals are like 10-20mg/kg (I dont recall the dose exactly, but it's a lot) per day in an IV drip
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@sunsunsun Thanks for chiming in. The dosages really are not self-evident, ever. Given the general amount of animal studies wherein astrononimcal concentrations are being used to draw conclusions, it's difficult to say what is uncalled for timidness and waste of effort and what's straight out daftly excessive, wasteful and potentiall harmful at the other end.
E.g. there are still people believing they need 5000 IU hGC per week when actually 250 IU (400IU max) every other day is pretty much enough for the whole effect.
Also, IFN-y is only being used at 100mcg. Its precursor Interleukin-12 (IL-12) appears to must be used only in single digit mcg amounts, if at all.Have you gained any experiences with the thymic peptides? I'll restart with the Glu-Trp thymogen and begin with the TA1.
