Experiments with transdermal hormones
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@metabolicmilk said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@brightside Do you think its possible to achieve a concentration of : 5mg test Per drop.
1mg dht Per drop.
1mg dhea Per drop.
1mg progesterone Per drop.
in a single solution?
This would be 100mg per ml of test and 20mg per ml of the rest.
Hmm. I'm gonna get a bit technical on you. (mostly because I've been meaning to bring this up in a thread somewhere)
Are we talking ethanol? DMSO? something else? Last time I measured, I got a different amount of drops from 1 mL of ethanol vs DMSO. Unfortunately, I don't remember the amount.
A different drop count per mL means different drops size/weight/volume, so your hormone concentration might not fit.
Also, I'm not sure if viscosity makes a difference on drop size. Say you have a solution that's 5% hormone vs 10% hormone. Would the drops change in size/weight or would the stay the same? The more concentrated solution is going to be more viscous, so theoretically it would mean a larger drop.
At the same time, I'm pretty sure it's the surface tension that actually matters. I do know that using different droppers will get you different sized drops. So a drop from a glass dropper will be bigger because ethanol can stick to glass, vs a plastic one it won't be able to stick to, so the drop will drop sooner and smaller. No idea how DMSO behaves.
This matters because if these factors do change, then you really don't know exactly how much hormone is in each drop. What if your mL gets stretched from 25 drops to 32, that means you wouldn't have 5mg T per drop, but only 3.9mg. If you plan to use a lot, then that adds up quickly. Your 100mg T dose would only be 78mg.
Would be cool if someone could chime in with some more understanding of this.
Anyways..
You would ultimately have to try it to see for yourself, but it does look like it would be a very tight fit. You're trying to fit 100mg(T) + 20mg(DHEA) + 20mg(P4) + 20mg(DHT) = 160mg of hormones into a milliliter of solvent that, at best, can hold 200mg/ml of DHEA, and at worst, 50mg/ml.
Also, do the hormones affect the solubility of other hormones? So for example, does the 20mg of DHT only "use up" 20mg/ml worth of DMSO, or do you need additional DMSO particles to stabilize it in solution, making it so that you actually use up more of the space that's supposed to be for other hormones.
That's just something else that I've been pondering on. It doesn't really answer your question though, lol
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@brightside What's the reason for transdermal over injecting the hormones?
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@jwayne said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@brightside What's the reason for transdermal over injecting the hormones?
Few reasons. For me, injection seems like a primitive method, while topical is a much more elegant solution. But the general reasons would be:
- risk of infection
- introducing needless PUFAs
- long term suppression and need for PCT to stop
- more of a commitment/big deal to do (buying potentially contaminated UGL gear or going to a TRT clinic)
- more often a need for AI (since topical generates more DHT)
Additionally, this is only for TRT, but people might want to use other hormones like P5, P4, DHEA, DHT, Exe, 5aDHP, etc. Using topically is convenient and can offer a high absorption compared to oral, or it can provide an alternate metabolism. (like in the case of DHEA or T).
I've purified some exemestane from some pills and used it topically. It worked well, and personally I would prefer to use a few drops of exemestane than take a pill with microcrystalline cellulose. Also, topical bypasses the first-pass effect which degrades a large amount of exemestane that already has a poor absorption rate. Topical > oral in this case.
Lastly, the reason I put so much effort into this is because I find this topic interesting.
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@brightside Hey, what is your current formula that gives the most satisfying results? I mean especially for the testosterone.
I have tried several formulas including DMSO, Ethanol, IPM, Menthol etc. But I could not find anything that I could stick to long term or that it would give me the results I want.
I think the biggest problem for me is the spike in hormones. Thank you.
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Hi @brightside
I actually tried this last night. It was possible in a solution of 80%DMSO. 20% Ethanol. Dissolved perfectly fine. I believe one drop from my bottle is 0.05ml. The amount of liquid was exactly 100ml.
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@milkgains_bro Also curious about this
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@brightside Good reasons
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My son Red Button, you still work at Staples brah?
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@metabolicmilk said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
Hi @brightside
I actually tried this last night. It was possible in a solution of 80%DMSO. 20% Ethanol. Dissolved perfectly fine. I believe one drop from my bottle is 0.05ml. The amount of liquid was exactly 100ml.
Do you not absorb ethanol to the point of toxicity when it's mixed with DMSO ?
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The amount of ethanol is very small. In this solution per application it will be only 0.05ml. ( 5 drops and ethanol is 20% of the solution ). I think even with DMSO potentiating effects it is negligible. I certainly don’t feel anything. The ethanol is there to clean the application area. I think the danger of potentially absorbing unwanted things due to the presence of DMSO is more of a risk than 0.05ml of ethanol. Haidut I believed used to use this ratio in his DMSO products and he is a much smarter man than me so if it’s good for him it’s good for me
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I wonder what SFA esters Haidut uses? And where you'd even go to buy such things. Haven't seen that on Amazon.
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I emailed them a year ago. I don't think this information is proprietary, since they shared it freely, but if anything I'll remove the image.
The actually effective fatty acids in their mixture are are the shorter chain ones (namely C8, C10, and C12). Those fats are incredibly smelly, and you would know about them in your product instantly. This means that they are in such low quantities that it's basically meaningless (or that their ratio is heavily skewed towards C14, and C16).
For example, when I used lauric acid, even in low <5% amounts, I can smell it on my skin for hours. Out of the medium chain fatty acids, LA is by far the best smelling (smells kind of chemically, not horrible but not good either), so if there would be any meaningful amount of C8 or C10, you would smell like you were rolling around with goats and sweat.
Basically, the SFA esters don't add much to the product, and in my opinion they might as well just use MCT oil.
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@brightside Interesting. So MCT oil would be a viable co-solvent along with ethanol? I only ask because I've never used it. Tocopherol has been an excellent lipid-based compound and I haven't had the need to venture out much further than that. It also mixes with more volatile solvents like ethanol without an issue too. I've noticed a mixture of ethanol & tocopherol to be particularly useful in getting DHT it solvent quite easily, which I've always noticed can be tricky as it's slightly more temperamental than normal T base.
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@Mulloch94 I was actually thinking of making a transdermal/sublingual dht solution with ethanol and vitamin e. Probably dissolving the dht powder in ethanol first and then adding the tocopherols. I honestly think dht + tocopherols might be the new meta. Progest-e for males basically. Have you experimented with something like that?
Progest-e also has coconut triglycerides so these might be somewhat important to improving the absorption, and then theres also the sfa esters like ipm and ipp haidut uses that may help, but i think hormones in vit e are better absorbed in thin cell membranes such as gums in general, while the sfa esters would enhance absorption on regular skin. -
@pannacottas Yes. I've tried DHT dissolved in pure tocopherol for oral usage. I've also used mixtures of ethanol + tocopherol + PG for topical use. I've even dissolved it in a mix of ethanol + tocopherol + progest-e. That might be my least favorite, as progesterone with DHT is too sedating for me.
It's possible, but I would assume the coconut triglycerides added to Progest-e are mostly there to make the product more pourable. As I've got a bottle of pure vitamin E, no added oils or anything. That shit is THICK. Very hard to work with if it's not warmed up first. I notice Progest-E is thinner and easier to pour.
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@Mulloch94 How did you like just dht in E orally vs the topical with ethanol?
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@pannacottas It's okay, I think the duration of action is much shorter though. I got hot and thermogenic for like 2 hours and it basically subsided. But that's to be expected. You also can't exactly dissolve as much in pure tocopherol as you can a mixture of ethanol and tocopherol. But you don't really need to either. If you're going to take it orally in vitamin E you can feel the effects in as little as 15mgs. Whereas if you're going to do it topically with ethanol I wouldn't waste my time with anything under 50mgs.
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I'm going to put an end to the dozens of messages I receive in my inbox on this forum : yes, ethanol + MCT oil + IPM has the best convenience and absorption profile of all transdermal methods, no DMSO is not ideal.
I use DMSO solutions when I want to elicit deep transcriptional changes, such as anchoring a long lasting androgenic state by megadosing DHT in DMSO for a few days. -
@Santosh What would be the significance of adding Isopropyl Myristate to the ethanol + MCT mixture?
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Seems like Salvo from Iron Legion is a good delivery system as well, but it's expensive. 25 dollars for a measly 30ml bottle is quite high by comparison of getting grain alcohol from my local liquor store.