whats your opinion on taking kefir?
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Ray Peat has expressed concerns about consuming kefir and other fermented foods. He generally avoids fermented foods due to the production of lactic acid, which he believes can be a metabolic burden, impairing energy production, and reducing carbon dioxide levels in the body. While both kefir and yogurt are popular fermented dairy products, Peat recommends consuming them sparingly, if at all, primarily as condiments rather than as staple foods.
He also highlights the potential for kefir to contribute to an overproduction of lactic acid, which he associates with inflammatory conditions and stress on the body. Moreover, Peat advises caution with most fermented foods because of their potential to contain harmful byproducts like endotoxins and fungal contamination
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@the-MOUSE said in whats your opinion on taking kefir?:
He also highlights the potential for kefir to contribute to an overproduction of lactic acid, which he associates with inflammatory conditions and stress on the body.
It's a matter of quantity and frequency.
1° Drop the liquid in the yoghurt before eating.
2° I take 100 mg thiamine at breakfast and midday when eating once a day Greek yoghurt.
It helps neutralizing lactic acid.
3° I make breaks between two pots 1 kg / 2 pounds (10 % fat). Yaourt has an impact on the intestinal flora.
=> Need to be balanced with polyphenols (raw vegetables) and meat to diversify the flora.Final thought: RP is probably right. Nobody is perfect. but if you enjoy it and knows the limits of what you're doing, you shouldn't feel "guilty", provided you metabolize well / you don't have problems with histamine and or digestion.
I repeat: once a day (150 ml / 5 oz.), with a break between 2 takes. At least a break 1/3 of the time.
Not a "scientific" answer, I know. But what about the pleasure of eating, provided you can manage it! I put blueberries or cut strawberries and 1 tbl brown maple syrup, at breakfast. Scandal again: berries + fructose. ( histamine and tiny seeds in strawberries).
Should we stop drinking one glass of wine (125 ml / 4 oz.) because there is ethanol in it. The liver stops all the processes when ethanol arrives. Not every day, of course. The weekend or a break when the bottle is empty (3 days long).
As far as kefir is concerned, I'll limit fruit kefir (acidity) to 30-50 ml. Milk kefir is less acidifying but still bringing the same quantity of lactic acid, I suppose.
Not so interesting as pointed. Vary and make pause / staples. -
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@the-MOUSE I like eating yogurt and straining it overnight to reduce lactic acid and reduce the negative effect on liver the glycogen
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@the-MOUSE said in whats your opinion on taking kefir?:
@LucH thanks. @yerrag @mostlylurking any additonal opinion on this?
Right. Well done but not enough as explained. Make breaks.
Or wait until the problem comes if you prefer. Not sure about the time it'll take. Have you ever heard of quorum sensing in the microbiome? -
@LucH interesting. quickly searched it up. so probiotic/prebiotic maybe cope then if amount is set based on autoinducers?
i think main is diverse microbiome. also as age, microbiome changes, maybe maintaining biome diveristy of that of some1 young could be beneficial
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@the-MOUSE said in whats your opinion on taking kefir?:
i think main is diverse microbiome. also as age, microbiome changes, maybe maintaining biome diversity of that of some1 young could be beneficial
Yes, older people (> 70 y) have a weaker microbiome.
*) Quorum sensing
In short: Capacity of bacteria to communicate to share information in order to coordinate one or several actions.
Quorum sensing bacteria produce and release chemical signal molecules called auto-inducers that increase in concentration in order to obtain a function from host cells. Expressed differently, if some bacteria come predominant they may take the control of what you want to eat. In some circumstances (same kinds of foodstuff, without a variety from macronutrients and vegetables), they overgrow and take the control of other bacteria. It’s no longer a community with more or less the same rights to exist, but slavery (exploitation of the weakest ones to the profit of the strongest ones from the new association).Impact of the microbiome
*) Key ideas from part 1
• 80% of our immunity depends on interaction with intestinal bacteria.
• Bacteria live in symbiosis with the host as long as a species – a phylum – does not seek to extend its range…
• The two dominant phyla are Bacteroides and Firmicutes. They produce beneficial SCFAs, mainly from polysaccharides derived from indigestible fiber.
SCFA = Short-Chain Fatty Acids
• A diet with or without fiber, in an appropriate quantity (20 – 30 g), will direct the dominant type of bacteria.
*) Key ideas from part 2
• The Firmicutes / Bacteroides (F/B) ratio is oriented by our dietary habits but Firmicutes can be dominant following maternal transmission.
• Species diversity is important.
• Some studies do not always demonstrate a cause and effect relationship between the F/B ratio. But this relationship is indeed associated with obesity, and, consequently, with metabolic comorbidity (death).*) Key ideas from part 3
• The type of microbiota affects nutrient acquisition (assimilation), energy recovery (calories extracted) and host metabolic pathways (hormones and immunity).
• If you disrupt the microbiome on a regular basis, you disrupt harmony and trigger a deleterious process: low-grade inflammation, dysbiosis and leaky gut at the end of the race.
• The stomach and each section of the intestine are colonized by a different type of bacteria, at different concentrations, with a different ecology.
• Overweight or obese people have a different Bacteroidetes / Firmicutes ratio. More Firmicutes.
• If you eat foods that are high in sugar or can easily be converted to sugar, these foods will feed firmicutes. While complex carbohydrates and insoluble fibers rather feed the Bacteroidetes.
• The type of bacteria influences your insulin reaction and your desire for a type of food (fatty, meaty or sweet), and therefore your weight gain or not, by 10 to 20%, for the same calorie intake.
• If you have a low F/B ratio (few bacteria) you will often have cravings. In addition, Firmicutes extract more calories from food. Faster weight gain (visceral fat).
• If you practice intermittent fasting (for example 16/8 or 5.2), this stimulates certain metabolic pathways (repair, muscle growth, energy use).
• If you want to create a deficit, you must do it in a moderate manner, so as not to stress the brain and the microbiota. 10% below metabolic requirements (BMI). It will also be effective if you practice this system 5 days a week, to maintain a friendly family life (family meals).
• 50% of healthy people report an endotoxic reaction (LPS) when they ingest a McDonald's meal or a frozen pizza. This means that we are not all equal when it comes to genetic susceptibility (genetic predisposition to disease). But we can reorient the environmental factors that have a primary influence on the composition of the terrain.
• When a teenager eats McDonald's or a pizza with a cola or a beer, regularly, he configures his microbiome (reoriented balance) and is conditioned for a type of response (attraction to certain foods).
• If you take a certain type of probiotics and change your diet (fiber, fruits and vegetables) and lifestyle, you can act to prevent leaky gut. To do this, we must eliminate obesity from the equation.
• Excess weight leads to hormonal dysfunction, disrupted metabolism, and then low-grade inflammation. This will result in dysbiosis (fermentation). If this continues, it will turn into leaky gut, leading to clogging and a continued disruption of homeostasis. In general, this induces/results in a reaction of the immune system (clogging, elimination and/or immune pathology).
• Researchers postulate that low-grade inflammation comes first, before dysbiosis. Then obesity appeared. But this pattern is not recurring/fixed. On the other hand, obesity will certainly induce low-grade inflammation via hormonal changes. This then leaves the door open to a whole bunch of metabolic pathologies.
• Short-chain fatty acids (SCFA) are produced mainly from resistant starches and polysaccharides, thanks to the action of certain bacteria. We need SCFAs and CLA to produce certain hormones important for intestinal barrier integrity.
• Short-chain fatty acids play an important role in the proliferation of macrophages in all tissues of your body. They are very important for the immune system and, of course, your metabolic system.
• If you do not tolerate prebiotics well (fragile intestines), or if your immune system is over-reactive, there are sporebiotics. These are spores arising from the cell wall of bacillus spores.
https://youtu.be/1fgf39-tBcg 3’28’’ (Dr Mercola is interviewing Dr. Dietrich Klinghardt)*)See Impact of the microbiome (3 parts) (In French, translator needed if you want details).
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1589-impact-du-microbiome#18869
=> Supply required. -
@the-MOUSE Ray Peat liked Greek yogurt because it is strained so has most of the lactic acid removed. If the container develops liquid separated from the solid, just pour it off. The American yogurt has too much lactic acid in it.
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@the-MOUSE I think that the articles written by Dr.Lonsdale and Dr. Chandler Marrs about the gut microbiome are very good.
https://hormonesmatter.com/thiamine-microbiome/
https://hormonesmatter.com/quick-thoughts-bacterial-thiamine-synthesis-dysmotility-and-dysbiosis/
https://hormonesmatter.com/gastrointestinal-disease-thiamine/
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@the-MOUSE said in whats your opinion on taking kefir?:
@LucH thanks. @yerrag @mostlylurking any additonal opinion on this?
Gut health varies from the severely crippled western AMA gut to the healthier gut in less developed countries. The more developed a country is, the more it's healthcare and agricultural and food processing industry is dominated by what I consider to be the most critical factors for success, which is the use of the regulatory agencies such as the FDA and the USDA to create more opportunities for profit for corporations thru milking democratic processes by way of lobbying.
Pretty much what the USA is all about these days.
Raised in a poor country, I don't even my friends here for being born into a system which from birth is initiated into a lifetime of health subtraction, and the gut is just one part of what is destroyed. Just think why peanut allergy is a thing here and nothing elsewhere.
As far as kefir goes, it has a fermentative set of anaerobic bacteria, which is associated with being the good bacteria needed to balance the bad bacteria.
You may ask what the bad bacteria is. It is also anaerobic bacteria, but of the putrefactive kind.
Anaerobic bacteria is generally not needed in the gut imho. But when it is there, it does no harm as long as there is a balance between the putrefactive and the fermentative kind. The putrefactive has a foul smell, if you ever get to smell it. It sometimes has the rotten egg smell from the H²S gas it produces, and you smell it when you pass by a garbage heap of food waste (though you also smell fermentative wastes, which makes the smell milder). Otoh, fermentation brings about a sweet and sour character to the smell and taste we perceive, as in vinegar, sauerkraut, and kimchi, and to a lesser extent wine and beer.
If our gut is without much of the anaerobic bacteria, our feces would not smell malodorous at all. This is what my feces are now, after I was able to accidentally rid my gut of a large amount of anaerobic bacteria when I took a combination of biofilm busters and antibiotics. My feces have stayed odorless for about 5 years since.
Needless to say, I don't need kefir as I don't need its lactic acid bacteria to balance the putrefactive bacteria in my gut.
I only drink kefir or eat sauerkraut or kimchi or beer just for variety in the foods I eat. I love kefir for the sour taste it has, and even prefer it not sweetened. When I am eating middle eastern or northern Indian or Afghani food.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@yerrag sort of off topic, but what combination of biofilm busters and antibiotics did you take? would you recommend taking them? have you experienced other, not directly stool related benefits?
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It's been awhile and I don't remember offhand the biofilm busters I used but I used the throw the kitchen sink approach using biofilm busters, so you can do a search for biofilm busters and buy what you can get your hands on and use them. I figure the more variety the better to handle all the biofilm the multiple types of bacteria make to protect themselves from antibiotics.
You will know it's working when you have diarrhea, as that shows your gut stew is now contaminated with dead anaerobic bacteria that is killed by exposure to oxygen when the biofilm is broken. You deal with the diarrhea using activated charcoal.
The use the antibiotics. I used doxycycline for two weeks, followed by amoxiclav for 2 weeks, and Zithromax for 7 weeks.
It was intended to target my internal colony of bacteria, but ended up doing a lot of work on my gut, especially the anaerobic ones. I used the research of RPF member Tarmander who had a podcast episode on antibiotics to make sure si don't pick any antibiotic that would leave terrible side effects that could be hell to dig out from.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@yerrag thanks, do you have any specific recommendations for biofilm busters? i see lots on amazon with loads of ingredients which makes me a bit wary. im in the uk btw
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I'll have to dig in to my old Chromebook and its bookmarks and get back to you, but yes, avoid the commercial stuff just the busters from nature such as herbs and some safe chemicals.
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
This is the Quax podcast of Tarmander on antibiotics I listened to:
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
@yerrag thank you
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@yerrag I found your thread on the old forum and this is what you said you were taking as biofilm busters (in a reply to "The Law and Order Admin" lol)
"I'm taking a blend of berberine extract, rhubarb extract, and chitosan in a ratio of 3:3:1. Split into 3 doses, I take them about 30 minutes after each meal, mixed in water."
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@jhp Glad you found it. It's a nice blend using herbal and natural ingredients. It's my preferred approach, but on the antibacterial end, as opposed to the biofilm busting end of things, I went at that time with pharma antibiotics. I was just glad it turned out well. Though I always wondered what herbs or natural substances I would use in place of the antibiotics.
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I’ve heard oil of oregano is very powerful.
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@RawGoatMilk88 That one is good. Mike Fave recommended that to me as well.
