Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat

Mauritio

I've long suspected that there is a connection between bile and fungal infections. I frequently experienced a bile dump and a fungal die off at the same time.

Now this study shows, that funghi can "hide" from anti-fungals in bile and in the gallbladder, making the bile serve as a reservoir for the fungus
This makes it even harder to treat the fungus, even when the treatment is finished and it is mostly eradicated it can quickly recolonize from the gallbladder.

"Fungi and bacteria can persist in the human gall bladder. Previous studies have shown that bile protects Candida albicans in this cryptic host niche from antifungals, providing a reservoir for intestinal re-colonization after discontinuation of antifungal therapy. "

Not only that, but "Bile and conjugated bile salts trap antifungals in micelles, thereby reducing their bioavailability and possibly promoting the development of drug resistance."

One thing that makes it even worse is PUFA, it increases the pro-fungal effect that bile has, while saturated fat has no such effect. Many SFAs even have anti-fungal effects such as caprylic acid.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29029700/

Mauritio

I'm not sure how the treatment should look.
Increasing transit speed and frequently emptying the gallbladder by eating fiber, using specific supplements like FXR-agonists, and continuing anti-fungal substances is what comes to mind.

This study has an interesting hint: we need small and hydrophilic molecules for an anti-fungal effects that isn't reduced by bile.

"In contrast, small and hydrophilic molecules, such as cycloheximide, flucytosine, or sodium azide kept their antifungal properties. "
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28203228/

Mauritio

This study comes to the same conclusion as the OP. The kidney serves as the main organ of candida infection, but viable fungal cells persisted in the gallbladder.

"... confirmed the kidney as the main target organ but additionally observed the translocation of C. albicans to the urinary bladder. The treatment of infected mice with caspofungin and fluconazole significantly improved the clinical outcome and clearance of C. albicans from the kidneys; however, unexpectedly, viable fungal cells persisted in the gall bladder. Fungi were secreted with bile and detected in the faeces, implicating the gall bladder as a reservoir for colonization by C. albicans after antifungal therapy. Bile extracts significantly decreased the susceptibility of C. albicans to various antifungals in vitro, thereby probably contributing to its persistence."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24951534/

Mauritio

There seems to be differences though.
Conjugated bile salts as their sodium salt are fungi-static .
In the OP study the bile but not conjugated bile salts conferred resistance to anti fungal therapy. So not sure if the sodium salts is necessary. But maybe increasing sodium intake would help? As sodium salts are formed in the gallbladder when sodium is there as well.

"Cholic acid, chenodeoxycholic acid, deoxycholic acid, glycocholic acid, glycodeoxycholic acid, hyodeoxycholic acid and lithocholic acid as their sodium salts, were fungistatic to the growth of Candida albicans. "
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3323449/

This study says the opposite though . That unconjugated bile salts are anti-fungal. Weird .

"While unconjugated bile salts were toxic to C. albicans, taurine, or glycine conjugated bile salts were well tolerated and protective."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28203228/

Mauritio

In this study giving mice the bile acid taurocholic acid was enough to cause a Candida albicans infection.
The bile acid also reduced several bacteria. I think that's a other way through which bile acids increase susceptibility to Candida, since there is a delicate balance of bacteria and funghi in the gut keeping each other in check.
I think often it goes like this: people are sick with the flue (immonuspressed), get on an antibiotic (increasing funghi) and end up with a fungal infection.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.29.462497v2.full

Mauritio

@Mauritio said in Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat:

we need small and hydrophilic molecules for an anti-fungal effect

Im looking for anti-fungal candidates that fit the above category:

Boron (from food) /
Forms water soluble bonds with sugars and classified as small molecule .
Borax is also water soluble and small, so should work as well.
MSM
Small molecule and highly water soluble , fits the bill.

LucH

What about a water simili-fast of 4-5 days with a shake in which there is anti-fungal essential oil (EO).
Need some olive oil to avoid bile stasis in the duct.
These EO have to reach the second part of the colon.
Not a real fast as you provide basic trace elements (Mg, K, Na). We have to remain under 40-50 gr carbs if we wants to enhance lipolysis. Not obliged to do so but it’s easier in order not to feel hungry when taking some carbs. Sugar calls for sugar. An apple or an orange is OK.
Need fibers to lest LPS toxins and avoid constipation. Need some probiotics too, after the cure.

Useful link (in French, translator needed)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2000-boisson-he-effets-recherches#29307
Objectives with the EO drink
Fluidify – Bring stale fuel in the circuit– Assist the MMC – Target all areas of the body – Amplify the effects – Adopt a diet including interesting bases and nutrients – Adequate fluid intake.
Note:

Intended to reach the strains remaining under the radar, hidden behind a biofilm.
We don't deprive the strains of food, we ration them, and then we trap them. This will not kill them but will weaken their ability to resist. The immune system will be able to finish the job.
Importance of butyrate for the microbiome and tight junction health.
=> akkermansia muciniphila (=> food for bacteria producing butyrate + SCFA)
Followed by ProBiota HistaminX from SeekingHealh ***
Magnesium helps to retain calcium and vitamin D and balance out potassium and sodium. I think magnesium is the most important mineral to supplement with if you are not eating a lot of vegetables or fruit.”
Commentaires from Haidut:
“Magnesium is only retained if there is sufficient ATP synthesis as magnesium is bound to ATP most of the time. However, in order to produce ATP properly, sufficient calcium is needed. So, maybe eat dairy and well-cooked leaves since this way you get both minerals?”
Magnesium modulates parathyroid hormone secretion and upregulates parathyroid receptor expression at moderately low calcium concentration
doi: 10.1093/ndt/gft400 2013

Edit: I've cured a histamine intolerance and a possible SIBO/SIFO with delayed caps of Essential oils. EO but not only.

EGCG at slightly alkaline pH is effective against candida. maybe some sort of liposomal egcg that makes it into the bile would work

Mauritio

@LucH said in Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat:

What about a water simili-fast of 4-5 days with a shake in which there is anti-fungal essential oil (EO).
Need some olive oil to avoid bile stasis in the duct.
These EO have to reach the second part of the colon.
Not a real fast as you provide basic trace elements (Mg, K, Na). We have to remain under 40-50 gr carbs if we wants to enhance lipolysis. Not obliged to do so but it’s easier in order not to feel hungry when taking some carbs. Sugar calls for sugar. An apple or an orange is OK.
Need fibers to lest LPS toxins and avoid constipation. Need some probiotics too, after the cure.

Useful link (in French, translator needed)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2000-boisson-he-effets-recherches#29307
Objectives with the EO drink
Fluidify – Bring stale fuel in the circuit– Assist the MMC – Target all areas of the body – Amplify the effects – Adopt a diet including interesting bases and nutrients – Adequate fluid intake.
Note:

Intended to reach the strains remaining under the radar, hidden behind a biofilm.

We don't deprive the strains of food, we ration them, and then we trap them. This will not kill them but will weaken their ability to resist. The immune system will be able to finish the job.

Importance of butyrate for the microbiome and tight junction health.
=> akkermansia muciniphila (=> food for bacteria producing butyrate + SCFA)
Followed by ProBiota HistaminX from SeekingHealh ***

Magnesium helps to retain calcium and vitamin D and balance out potassium and sodium. I think magnesium is the most important mineral to supplement with if you are not eating a lot of vegetables or fruit.”
Commentaires from Haidut:
“Magnesium is only retained if there is sufficient ATP synthesis as magnesium is bound to ATP most of the time. However, in order to produce ATP properly, sufficient calcium is needed. So, maybe eat dairy and well-cooked leaves since this way you get both minerals?”
Magnesium modulates parathyroid hormone secretion and upregulates parathyroid receptor expression at moderately low calcium concentration
doi: 10.1093/ndt/gft400 2013

Edit: I've cured a histamine intolerance and a possible SIBO/SIFO with delayed caps of Essential oils. EO but not only.

Essential oils like thyme oil/thymol are fat soluble .
As per the posts above we need small, water soluble molecules .

Mauritio

@sneedful said in Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat:

EGCG at slightly alkaline pH is effective against candida. maybe some sort of liposomal egcg that makes it into the bile would work

EGCG is a small/medium sized molecule and only slightly water soluble. So there are better candidates than it. Maybe when it forms complexes with other molecules it makes it more water soluble .

LucH

@Mauritio said in Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat:

Essential oils like thyme oil/thymol are fat soluble .
As per the posts above we need small, water soluble molecules .

What about dissolving the mix EO in alcohol before adding the "solution" in water, and last olive oil in the shake.?
Essential oils are miscible in alcohol. Then we mix EO and alcohol in water. Miscible too.

Sunniva

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18451594/

Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) inhibits the germination of Candida albicans and the arthrospores of Trichophyton mentagrophytes
Muhammad Akram Randhawa. Nihon Ishinkin Gakkai Zasshi. 2008.
Free article
Abstract
Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) is commonly used as a solvent for antifungal drugs. Earlier the author has reported the inhibitory effect of DMSO on the growth of many strains of dermatophytes' colonies in dermasel agar and proposed that this could cause the variations between results of different studies for the evaluation of the activities of antifungal drugs. In studies regarding the determination of the effect of antifungal drugs on the germination of arthrospores of dermatophytes it was observed that relatively higher concentrations of DMSO were being used as a solvent for the antifungal drugs, the final concentration in the media being 5%. Therefore, the present study was aimed at determining the effect of different concentrations of DMSO (1.25 to 10%) on the growth of germ tubes of arthrospores of Trichophyton mentagrophytes and Candida albicans, in glucose peptone broth. With DMSO 10% there was a negligible growth of germ tubes of both the arthrospores and yeast; between 2.5 and 7.5% there was a rather linear dose-related inhibitory effect; whereas 1.25% had insignificant effect from controls. The present study shows that besides other factors, variations in the results of the susceptibility tests of antifungal drugs might occur due to the effect of DMSO on the growth of fungi and differences in the final concentration of DMSO in the medium.

yerrag

Have you considered turpentine? It has been used to fight candida albicans in the gut suçcessfully by Dr. Daniels

I once discovered by live blood analysis I have candida residing inside my red blood cells. It was causing hemolysis but was not detectable by standard lab testing. I took turpentine daily for 2 weeks and I believe the candida was gone but it also helped that I made sure I had acid-base balance by having good mitochondrial metabolism with also help using carbogen while I slept. I could not really verify but my urine had turned into a golden fluorescent color where it had been beer amber that showed tinges of blood.

Mauritio

@yerrag I took Haarlem oil daily for a while.
I believe it contains turpentine and sulfur. I got less and less of an effect as time went on so I stopped. But I recently reintroduced it and found that cycling it, seems to maintain its effects.

dapose

I think the idea of killing fungi in your body is absolutely ridiculous. Fungi digest dead material. They have no ability to digest living tissue. They exist like webs on dead or damaged tissue to slowly digest things that no bacteria can eat yet. If you have a fungal infection in you, it’s because you have dead or damaged tissue in you. Which is likely since our cells are turning over new cells constantly so we would constantly need things to remove the dead tissue. Hence the need for a high metabolism. Bile flow liver secretions, lymphatic drainage, pooping peeing, sweating. And I believe this is what people talk about needing a “good” microbiome. Lots of fungi! Lots of diversity or living bugs and fungi. Some parasites too. Your gut is a compost pile. And your metabolism is a motility motor. Right? Keeping your temperature high co2 high keeps your biochemistry just right for your internal garden.
Apples apple juice and tart cherries are a good way to increase bile production.
I like aloe Vera juice a couple shots a day for the emodin to get rid of extra crap. And cascara a couple times a week.
Pau D’arco and pu erh tea are great too.
There are some delicious moldy cheeses that have penicillin in them too that whenever I eat those a feel remarkable!
I hope to inspire people to look into what the point of fungus are. And not simply think, I have fungus in me! I need to kill it!
I mean Ray was never advising to kill candida. Didn’t he say fasting just makes candida way more embedded into the gut lining. And potentially lethal. He was saying keeping your small intestine clean and your motility moving etc. thyroid high.
‍🟫

yerrag

@Mauritio

Glad that it worked for you the 2nd time around. It could be about cycling, as that is something I forget to do at times. It it could be that you changed that made your interior more conducive to being fixed.

yerrag

@dapose You hit many right notes there. Usually there is an imbalance and that leads to a dominance that is seen as pathogenic. Perhaps we should see restoring balance as the goal. We never really kill or eliminate like genocides are natural, we only discourage dominance because uneven playing fields make it happen. Intentional or nor.

CrumblingCookie

@Mauritio said:

we need small and hydrophilic molecules for an anti-fungal effect
Im looking for anti-fungal candidates that fit the above category:

Encapsulated calciumhypochlorite granules ("Chloryte") may fit this bill for the upper GI and various deep tissues. It's rather rough and destructive and not a thing to do for more than two weeks at the very most, IMO.

@Mauritio said:

I took Haarlem oil daily for a while.
I believe it contains turpentine and sulfur. I got less and less of an effect as time went on so I stopped. But I recently reintroduced it and found that cycling it, seems to maintain its effects.

Turpentine (or more generally monoterpenes) reduce hepatic cholesterol synthesis, thereby reducing the cholesterol-saturation of bile which is then able to gradually dissolve cholesterol "plaque" or even proper stones along the bile ducts and in the gall bladder. That improves the biliary milieu along with better biliary flow. It's a very long-term process, however. It takes several months of taking monoterpenes ("Rawachol" capsules or tincture is an OTC product) 2-3 times daily. Tudca or Udca works well together with monoterpenes.

@Mauritio said:

I'm not sure how the treatment should look.
Increasing transit speed and frequently emptying the gallbladder by eating fiber, using specific supplements like FXR-agonists

Tudca and Udca also reduce the same enzyme of hepatic cholesterol synthesis, while additionally altering the bile acids composition towards being much more hydrophilic and less sticky, and also increasing the bile salt export pump for an in overall much greater bile flow (less stasis).
I'd rather use those daily instead of doing any more gall bladder flushes ever again (which only work in a very mechanical and macroscopic way).

dapose

@yerrag
Well said Ye!
I would say heavy hitters in the militaristic approach to a balanced system would be Castor Oil packs on the skin over the liver.
Higher dose Aloe Vera Juice.
Oregano oil + activated charcoal.
Russian Sauna. Or fever.
And Swedish Bitters one shot in warm chamomile tea.
The big guns!
Have you ever tried clove tea for your lungs!!?? Supposed to be great!!!

Mauritio

@Sunniva said in Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat:

(DMSO) inhibits the germination of Candida albicans

That is so interesting . You just helped me to connect the dots.
Several times when I used Melanon topically on the area above my liver/gallbladder I experienced fungal die off. I attributed it to apigenin or naringenin, but it might as well be the DMSO.
Apigenin and naringenib are also anti-fungal. They're also small molecules, but not hydrophilic. But still Melanon should be a very effective anti fungal applied topically.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29346565/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33934490/

If the gallbladder is so hard to reach for anti-fungals maybe topical is the way to go.
Maybe using some anti-fungal IdeaLabs supplements over the gallbladder would be good, ideally one that uses DMSO as a solvent.

Alternatively dissolving MSM in DMSO should help. It is a small, hydrophobic molecule and it dissolves in MSM so it might be very potent if delivered directly to the gallbladder via topical application.