Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat
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@CrumblingCookie Thanks for your answer.
Will be interesting to see if you find long term benefits from this hardcore treatment.Have you checked your iron and ferritin levels ?
Candida thrives on iron and makes it more virulent.My bile flow issues could be caused by a fungal infection as well. Found a few studies on that.
@CrumblingCookie said in Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat:
Don't know if any ineffective compound may prove to be effective again at a later time?
I think only partly. And thats kind of creepy. Does the fungus remember for months lol . Probably something like a epigenetic adaption. Not sure.
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re: iron chelating effect of doxy assisting antifungal effect of fluconazole study, the user above has concerns with doxy use so aspirin is probably suitable
idk if mentioned but using taurine or tudca directly to thin out the bile (this is actually a thing described in the merck manual for the latter with UDCA) is probably a good idea. im guessing the more watery the bile is the less hospitable it is to fungus
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@Mauritio Serum iron has been at the top of ref. range since almost forever.
Serum ferritin used to be low between 30-60 but to my probable detriment I had received four i.v. iron treatments four years back due to persistent anemia and ever since ferritin has been above 120 (-240).
Only when I stumbled upon copper Morley's high-tier references did I see that serum ferritin is another essential lie and sort of like serum liver enzymes: In general it shouldn't be floating about freely in any significant amount.@sunsunsun Such combos are def worth a thought!
All I can report is that TUDCA or taurine without antifungals had been making things significantly worse. Perhaps it did release fungi from a biliary reservoir and could turn out differently when combined with antifungals at the same time.
Similar to how some dietary sugar can be a good complement to antifungals as the thereby enhanced metabolism of yeasts raises their susceptibility to antifungals. Just like we need bacteria to not be in a dormant but replicative state to be harmed by ABx.
I may want to try TUDCA again in this context. Have also been thinking of pinning some i.m. thiamine or taking it orally for the same reasons. Yet only once I'm feeling sufficient confidence wrt the effectivity of the antifungal treatment! -
I live in Manila, Philippines. I apologize for giving the wrong impression that treating for fungus is common after a round of antibiotics. It depends on the attending physician, and the one that took care of my mom delayed my mom's discharge by giving her antifungals after the antibiotics treatment.
I felt it was odd because it seemed to worsen my mom's condition. I felt fungus is not well understood by doctors. It's hit or miss.
I think that practicing solely germ theory detracts from a better understanding of fungus, given that pleomorphism in terrain theory allows for the idea that bacteria can change into fungus.
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@sunsunsun yeah I think so too and minimizing intake first. I stopped using my iron cast pan about 6 weeks ago. Had another blood test on Friday so we'll see if ferritin is still high.
Taurine always makes my cholestasis worse for some reason. It is constipating.
TUDCA I should give another try. -
@sunsunsun
The Japanese had found increased susceptibility to severe fungi infetion and mortality thereof in liver injuries. Additional transferrin negated the extra mortality from liver injury in rodent studies.
I.e., liver injuries lead to less transferrin (and UIBC (unbound iron binding capacity) and TIBC (total iron binding capacity) and it is that decrease of transferrin which enhances fungal infections.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2960898/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2975353/Copper (and retinol) are therefore very essential in prevention of fungal infections.
Not sure about any treatment efficacy after infection has already occured, though. Surely more free iron will stimulate fungal growth - but does iron restriction assist when aiming for fungal eradication from tissues?I have been trying to raise my ceruloplasmin (and thus functional transferrin) by regular copper intake since late last year.
Also, in this paper from 2000 a strong clinical distinction was suggested between acute disseminated candidiasis and chronic disseminated candididiasis: Again, in CDC, there's typically no candidemia and whereas ADC involves several organ system, CDC predominantly befalls the spleen and liver. Typical findings are hepatosplenomegaly, and focal hepatic lesions by ultrasound imaging and recurrent fevers although I reckon the presentation of the latter two will be subject to the mentioned individual immunological response and existence of an even more latent phenotype of CDC (as abundantly shown in other publications in this thread).
Interestingly, cultures and histophathology of liver biopsies again frequently failed to detect fungi proven to be present by clinical signs and PCR of liver biopsies (no positive fungi PCR in healthy control group).In this 1992 publication intrabiliary Amphotericin B was successfully used in a child after (typical) failure of priorly administred systemic AmB to clear the biliary infection. Good for her. Yet only downstream of the hepatic tumor she had been hospitalized for.
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@CrumblingCookie said in Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat:
Copper (and retinol) are therefore very essential in prevention of fungal infections.
I have been trying to raise my ceruloplasmin (and thus functional transferrin) by regular copper intake since late last year.
Do you think consuming beef liver would be enough to help with this?
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@Mossy said in Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat:
Do you think consuming beef liver would be enough to help with this?
In prevention, yes. Not when contaminated.
Copper (Cu):
in beef liver (3 oz.): 12 400 mcg
in chicken pan-fried (3 oz.): 455 mcg
in seeds the best options include sesame seeds, almonds, sunflower seeds, and cashews. A 1-ounce serving of these crunchy seeds can supply around 0.5 to 0.9 milligrams of copper.
In pumpkin seeds 1,34 mg per 100 g. 1 tbsp is 7.44 g and brings 99 mcg Cu. => I put 1 big tsp in my smoothie with pomegranate.Ceruloplasmin is a protein your liver makes. It helps copper circulate throughout your body and plays an important role in making the iron that you get from food ready to move from your intestines to organs like your spleen. You need copper to help maintain energy and bone health.
So, no direct need for blood or liver needs but well for SOD enzyme. Copper is required for sod enzyme in infection control. Cu and Zn are required for superoxide dismutase enzymes. Interaction between HD take (+/ 1/10 Cu/Zn).
And Yes, retinol is also required in the immune process (interaction with A D K). I take 2x/wk. 5 000 UI (retinyl palmitate). -
@CrumblingCookie said in Bile can serve as a reservoir for funghi, making them harder to treat:
but does iron restriction assist when aiming for fungal eradication from tissues?
I suspect so. At least on the sense that lower iron will make fungi more susceptible to anti-fungal treatment.
"The SC5314-strain and oral isolates showed enhanced antifungal-resistance towards most antifungals tested, under high iron."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20002297.2022.2044110#abstract -
This study has an interesting hint: we need small and hydrophilic molecules for an anti-fungal effects that isn't reduced by bile.
"In contrast, small and hydrophilic molecules, such as cycloheximide, flucytosine, or sodium azide kept their antifungal properties. "
It's difficult to not despair in the face of things continueingly worsening since the stop of fluconazole 300mg pd in spite of having commenced flucytosin treatment (100mg/kg BW /day) already 5 days ago.
Flucytosine's mechanism of action is a slow, gradual, delayed intracellular conversion and poisoning in contrast to the rather immediate mechanism of action of fluconazole.
Whilst Flu especially accumulates in mucosal tissues, it principally seems true that FCy doesn't even start to work within a couple of days but requires about 2 weeks to get going:
Fluconazole vs. flucytosine in the treatment of esophageal candidiasis in AIDS patients: a double-blind, placebo-controlled study, 1995
On the other hand, the FCy (5-FC) has been making me feel weak and woozy in the head since day one. It's also been exerting a weak cardiovascular burden.I've read in some paper that the fear of developing resistancy to FCy monotherapy is much exaggerated as there have been very few reported cases of it happening in-vivo.
The urgent recommendation of pairing FCy with i.v. AmB for at the very least 2 weeks of treatment induction must be, to a great extent, down to bridging the temporal gap until onset of FCy efficacy.Serologically, my C. albicans antibodies are nil and serum CAGTA antigen is also nil (that's the Candida spp. hyphal protein).
Thus, unless there's a specific humoral defect, C. albicans has no involvement at all in my case. C. glabrata, however, generally doesn't do hyphae but is able to be sufficiently nasty and virulent in its yeast form.
Circulating serum 1,3-beta-D-Glucan levels (as a systemic marker for most fungal species) also aren't elevated but at half of the lab's threshold.
There are therefore really no lab markers at all to support any physician in joining speculations on a hepatic/biliary fungal infection. It's difficult to not despair.Have stopped the borax drinking water.
Have started 500-1000mg of UDCA per day to enhance bile solubility and hydrophilicity.
Also trialled alpha-GPC for two days in this context. However, that turned super awful. Choline and in particular alpha-GPC is a superfood to fungi which they gobble up for its choline and phosphate.
Kind of disadvantageous when you know that the liver needs substantial amounts of choline for itself.
Have pinned 100mg Thiamin-HCl i.m.@mossy I wouldn't know! I dislike and distrust liver so have gone for the isolated substances and followed them up with testing of serum (free) copper, ceruloplasmin and retinol. IIRC there was one guy writing on the old RPF that he had eaten lots of liver regularly and his lack of copper was surprisingly unaffected until he started supplements.
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any opinion on pH and yeasts?
