Random, interesting studies

LucH

@Mauritio said in Random, interesting studies:

What do you guys think?

After 60 yrs, 2 - 5% % loss is usual, according to activity.
Main causes to fight against (things happening in our bodies as we age that might contribute to sarcopenia):
Reduction in nerve cells responsible for sending signals from the brain to the muscles to start movement.
Lower concentrations of some hormones, including growth hormone, testosterone, and insulin-like growth factor
Increases in inflammation, partly due to disease
A decrease in the ability to turn protein into energy.

So, if we can slow down these processes, we could better manage ...
Law of nature: if not able to reproduce, if not able to transmit knowledge, we become a weight for society.
Note I don't feel it that way

DavidPS

@Mauritio - I am wary of drawing conclusions from studies that lump people into groups based solely on their protein intake. It is too broad-brush for me. For example, is it the high protein or the skewed calcium to phosphorous ratio in the high protein group? Is it the high protein or the change in the glycine to methionine ratio?

Aging is complex. For a more holistic approach, see Ray Peat's 2015 newsletter:

https://wiki.chadnet.org/files/imprinting-and-aging.pdf

alfredoolivas

@Mauritio
In the first study, the 5% protein diet, caused 0.32% loss in free fat mass.

Which is almost nothing right? very interesting.

Mauritio

@DavidPS It is speculative for sure . But the effect was strong. A 75% increase in overall mortality is pretty wild.

It hints at low protein being safe. That's what I'm getting at . If it was harmful, it would be unlikely to have such a drastic effect.

Mauritio

@alfredoolivas yeah that's negligible. Pretty wild . Thanks for sharing.

And Im not sure people realize how low 5% is .10% is doable .
8% is somewhat doable, but 5% is really hard . Especially for 12 weeks.

I remember posting the 8% study on reddit and some smartass was like : "Good luck loosing all your muscle" ...

Basically zero muscle loss after 12 weeks of 5% protein is pretty impressive.

Mauritio

Seems like they do eat the honeycomb as well.
@cs3000
Youtube Video

random

@Mauritio said in Random, interesting studies:

Seems like they do eat the honeycomb as well.
@cs3000
Youtube Video

There's no moment in this video where we see the Africans eating the honey for several seconds without the shot changing, so there's not even time to see if they swallow it or spit the comb out after chewing, there is 2 hunters eating honey, and the first hunter legit still has a ball of wax in the inside of his right cheek right before camera switch. Are you looking for confirmation bias?

Mauritio

@random Yeah maybe they spit it out. Just came across this video randomly and thought it was interesting.

random

@Mauritio said in Random, interesting studies:

@random Yeah maybe they spit it out. Just came across this video randomly and thought it was interesting.

I suggest try to find videos where the camera focus on the hunters for long enough with out switching to see if they spit or swallow the comb

cs3000

@Mauritio wax is about 10% of the size when u chew it down so they might let it build up a bit
in this one the older guy spits out the wax (& the dude with the 80s hairstyle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJXpp8A1MSA#t=34m35s
and the guy on the right did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMbbxwLyZLc#t=23m22s but the guy on the left was swallowing some tho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMbbxwLyZLc#t=19m25s

can build up & block the stomach / intestine anyway swallowing enough at once and not much to gain as can get the compounds in the wax other places & absorbed

CrumblingCookie

@cs3000
Thanks for clearing up this issue of the policosanols in beeswax being non-hydrolysed and therefore essentially useless.

I had been using 20mg policosanols daily (the Swanson product) for a couple of months: Mildly beneficial for digestion and maybe overall.
Then I had used yellow beeswax for a while and every now and then at equivalent amounts of c. 2grams, as per the older info on the RPF, and that never helped with anything and distinctly worsened digestion. From your answer I now finally know why.

cs3000

@CrumblingCookie np ah fits then, funny how this stuff works sometimes. soon after seeing this i got honeycomb as a gift. probably would have ate a decent amount & irritated my intestine damage more if not for this thread & looking into it. great timing

Mauritio

@cs3000 same I was about to reorder honeycomb from Italy, but don't want to risk stomach blockade or anything similar.

random

@Mauritio said in Random, interesting studies:

@cs3000 same I was about to reorder honeycomb from Italy, but don't want to risk stomach blockade or anything similar.

@cs3000

You Can still get different effects from it even if you dont swallow the comb, sometimes more powerfull than honey in jar.

There is claims on internet associated with ayurveda that scealed honey comb retain his prana much longer than honey in jar.

I suggest to buy it only from a beekeepers you Can ask questions, due to some beekeepers using plastic/synthetic materials that end up in the comb

revenant

Regarding low protein:

"Hong Kong has one of the highest meat consumption per capita in the world at 664g per day."

"Hong Kong people have a very long life expectancy. In 2023, the expectancy of life at birth for men and women was 83 years and 88 years."

Okinawans ate a lot of pork too when they topped the longevity charts. Not sure how to explain this contradiction. In general meat consumption correlates positively with lifespan:

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8881926/

Low protein looks great in studies but I didn't feel particularly good on it, nor did I lose weight.

TexugoDoMel

Low protein looks great in studies but I didn't feel particularly good on it, nor did I lose weight.

I'm simplifying, but I think the benefits of restricting protein (or some amino acids) are proportional to the degree of metabolic dysfunction someone is in. The more dysfunctional the metabolism, the greater the possible benefits of restriction, the less dysfunctional the metabolism, the greater the potential detriments of restriction.

Ray's approach interests me more because it considers how needs change with ageing. Amino acids such as methionine, cysteine and tryptophan seem to have been considered in a growth context, they are “essential” but the amount in adulthood is much lower than in a growth phase, so the priority of amino acids changes

Mauritio

@TexugoDoMel That is in conflict with the study I posted above that shows a strongly protective effect for old people on a high protein diet. There metabolism should be more damaged so that doesn't add up.

I know it's only a correlation, but the correlation is so strong that it seems likely that there is causality as well.

What's intriguing as well that the correlation was removed when people consumed plant protein and not animal protein. Plant protein has a lot less methionine, which would explain the lower cancer rates. Cancer has what's called methionine addiction ...

TexugoDoMel

@Mauritio

I oversimplified haha, in “degree of dysfunction” I include the type of dysfunction, since I think everything that is healthy works in the same way but at different levels of complexity.

I don't know if I would consider that it conflicted with the study (I'm commenting based on what you said, I haven't read it yet), unless I only considered protein intake as a variable. If I put age in context the level of protein has a different effect, in a young person you would have a lot of protein in an environment with a lot more hormones (such as IGF-1, since you mentioned the cancer issue) but this would not happen with someone old since the hormonal environment is different, if high protein helps fight something simple like sarcopenia in old age then it would be enough to see a protective effect, since a healthy amount of muscle helps preserve independence and the ability to live normally and not locked up without being able to do anything without someone along.

The minimum of methionine, tryptophan, cysteine that a young person needs is probably higher than an elderly person in a general context, but consuming above a level should cause other problems that you wouldn't see in an elderly person because the general context is different. Maybe in the future high/low protein will take on a secondary role and amino acid composition will get more attention, because I doubt that high protein is in a context of high collagen, for example haha

eduardo-crispino

@random I saw a boomer who uses used plastic and ink political voting signs for racks in his bee hives lololol
and once I found a plastic string inside a honeycomb, and also I found out they keep the hives under an airplane landing path next to the airport loloollol

Mauritio

Giving young mice a microdose of 1mg DNP had some interesting effects on their health. Thats an insanely low dose. While I'm usually cautious with DNP, this dose seems safe.
(1mg= HED, not sure if i calculated the dosage right)

Benefits:

Lowered weight gain
Strongly increased oxygen consumption, especially in brain
Strongly decreased free radicals concentration (hydrogen peroxide)
Increases life span by about 7%

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18505478/