Random, interesting studies
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@CrumblingCookie I think that we shouldn't let the main plot get away from us as we get lost in the weeds. There are numerous things that new-fangled research gets us in the weeds about by starting with a premise involved in minutia and creating alarms based on observed effects. While this can have value as side or mental notes in research, we shouldn't forget the big picture. The problems these types of studies create are one of non-real conditions. In fact, the overwhelming conclusion we ought to draw from all studies on PA should indicate to use autophagy inhibition by PA occurs under lipotoxic conditions i.e. HFD exposure. It is within the context of lipotoxicity due to fats that they are trying to prove the toxicity of yet another fat: in isolation; at very high doses, not normal food consumption. In contrast actual dietary fats, as in food, contain a mix of fatty acids and are metabolized differently, often mitigating such effects and presenting with opposite effects. Just look at the liver protective effect studies of PA.
At best, even in studies where it is not high, unreal, isolated doses what they establish are markers of preconceived notions to then derive their conclusions. This is classically begging the question. For example the 2019 randomized crossover trial in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition tested diets with ~30% fat energy, where ~50% of that fat came from PA, stearic acid, or OA all within feasible dietary ranges. It found PA raised LDL and non-HDL cholesterol compared to OA and stearic acid. "Cholesterol especially bad cholesterol (as they cringely say) is bad, therefore PA is bad." Meanwhile, the bigger picture stuff confesses: no difference in inflammation or immune markers.
Recall, even Peat spoke out against the fad of autophagy as a craze. Because in the pro metabolic view or bioenergetic view, phagocytic activity which is the host of immune components, is much more vital. And those components are built up by good diet and nutrients. Autophagy should be seen as a last resort of sorts, ideally very background process, that - not as an intentionally overt, self-induced process - is regulated by said bioenergetic system. Chronic fasting for example would be one such way in inducing stress to overtly induce autophagy. The real questions should be about total effects on the thriving of an organism. I think speaking of obesity as a [proven] hinderance to a specific organism is more valuable than questioning whether or not a certain degree of autophagy has taken place.
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@bio3nergetic
I appreciate your reply on this. It's interesting.Recall, even Peat spoke out against the fad of autophagy as a craze. Because in the pro metabolic view or bioenergetic view, phagocytic activity which is the host of immune components, is much more vital. And those components are built up by good diet and nutrients. Autophagy should be seen as a last resort of sorts, ideally very background process, that - not as an intentionally overt, self-induced process - is regulated by said bioenergetic system.
And I hold RP as a fool for such belittlement and neglect. It's of no help to focus on healthy-people talk and how things ought to be with denial of chronic disease states from other reasons. E.g. what was his take on tuberculosis?
There's no effective phagocytic activity without functioning (xeno)autophagy following up the phagocytic internalisation. Yes, ideally it should be a continous background process which clearance just as necessary, without a harmful build-up which then causes harm and further inhibition by its own mechanisms other than those which led to such a clogged system.Please correct me if I'm wrong in reading much of what your saying as a call to not get hold up with specific mechanisms to override the importance of the wider (dogmatic) achievements.
It's important to not fall for discussing the forest as an abstracted whole whilst denying the very substantial need of individual trees. -
@CrumblingCookie I think you're oscillating unnecessarily between two extremes, running the meaning and purpose of a given background system and applying it disproportionally to proactive health choice. Peat's sentiment about autophagy isn't "neglect" or "belittlement," nor is he saying it isn't important, but rather the emphasis on not intentionally pushing certain systems out of context because stress brings about an induction of said system with the loaded premise that, that system being pushed is good. Autophagy - and in context of effective phagocytic activity - takes care of itself with an over-arching nutritional/bioenergetic application. When you get that right, those systems purr right along as they should. When you prolong fast; "artificially fast as I put it chronically, you are pushing those systems out of context. This will not give you good results. In these out-of-contexts scenarios, the cell is eating its own apparatus, regardless of its state because the stress signal and uncoping of that stress dictates that. What you describe is preaching to the choir. What should be emphasized is good health/bioenergy to ensure those systems do their thing WITHIN context, in which, things you describe apply and for the good of the organism. It is always about the whole forest. You can get lost in the trees themselves or worse - as I suspect with a lot of these worthless studies - you can easily create an "allegory of the cave" type situation: they beguile you with shadows and red herrings. What fascinates me is how easy it is in life to do so.
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Lanolin/cholesterol rich diet protects from osteonecrosis.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24171681/Dare to think.
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@Mauritio,
Vitamin E prevents steroid-induced osteonecrosis in rabbits
Found in the 'Similar articles' in pubmed.
The experiments seem to corroborate the ones in the 'CHOL article':
In the Control group 15 out of 30 had the osteonecrosis, while in the alpha-tocopherol one 5/20.I suppose the Vitamin E + high-cholesterol (lanolin) would be the best diet.
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Topical Oxidized Vitamin C (DHA) permeates through skin 12x faster than ascorbic acid.
Even though the human study below is from a company that produced the product with DHA, it seems to be very carefully done with practical considerations.
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@Lejeboca yes I saw that one too but hadn't clicked on it. Thanks for sharing.
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Sorbitol
I'd be careful with sorbitol. The issue with sorbitol is that it is often made with a nickel catalyst, which leaches into the endproduct.
" The Cr/Fe promoted system exhibits the highest activity but the Fe leaches from the catalyst into the reaction mixture. Moreover, this catalyst deactivates after successive runs. For all Raney-type Ni catalysts leaching of Ni in the product mixture occurs."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0920586103000403?via%3DihubAlthough Ray said a little is ok:
Post 28 Title: Bryan · Feb 4, 2013 at 5:00 PM Author: Bryan Post Content:
Me: Is sorbitol o.k. to eat? I got some gummy bears that have it in them.
Peat: A little is o.k.
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Papaya/Papain
Papain reverses the effects of a high fat diet in mice. The mice getting Papain, did not gain more weight than the mice on a normal control diet.
Papain even lowered visceral fat content slightly below the control group.
It lowered liver enzymes, triglycerides, adipogenic and inflammatory Markers.
It also drastically upregulated AMPK, similarly to aspirin, biotin or infrared light.https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8468764/
Potent Fibrinolytic, Anticoagulant, and Antithrombotic Effects of Papain
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38069092/Lowers the number of mast cells and inflammatory cytokines
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39199175/Papain has anti-artherosclerotic effect. Lowers COX-2, PGE2 and other cytokines.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36947095/Papaya extract increases testosterone and sperm health, damaged by alcohol.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7099107/#Sec17Papain had anti fungal effects against different fungi, including ringworm.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3209867/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11128596/Papaya extract has anxiolytic effect
Evaluation of anxiolytic and sedative effects of 80% ethanolic Carica
papaya L. (Caricaceae) pulp extract in micePapaya extract has anti-depressant effect and lowers body weight.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40457195/
Papaya extract has anti depressnt effect. Lowers lipid peroxidation, increases catalase.
https://ijprajournal.com/issue_dcp/Screening of Antidepressant Activity of Ethanolic Extract of Carica papaya L. Leaves in Rats.pdfPapaya extract ameliorates a lot of the conditions bright on by sodium flouride on the brain and neurorransmitters.
https://phcog.com/article/sites/default/files/PhcogMag1455123-2802918_074709.pdfDare to think.
My X:
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Oyster peptides increase testosterone
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10563733/Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
@Mauritio Seems to be an affordable experiment to try: a kg costs only 90 dollars
https://enzymes.bio/product/papain-200000-u-g-food-grade-biological-enzyme/
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@alfredoolivas why would you want a KG of it to experiment with it ??
Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
@Mauritio I don't want to experiment with it, I was just pointing it out because
1.) Animal studies often use large doses, that aren't feasable with dosages found in OTC supplements
2.) Raw materials are rarely food / USP grade, and this was food grade. They also can be expensive and not sold to private individuals.So I was letting you know about it, incase you wanted to try it.
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@alfredoolivas tried to buy lactase from them. They list a goverment building as their site of operations. Probably a scam website. Fucking hate eu chem restrictions
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@lobotomize Good detective work
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@Mauritio said in Random, interesting studies:
Papain even lowered visceral fat content slightly below the control group.
It lowered liver enzymes, triglycerides, adipogenic and inflammatory Markers.
It also drastically upregulated AMPK, similarly to aspirin, biotin or infrared light.Nice find. It lowers PPARγ (decreased lipogenesis). By the looks of it increasing CaMKK, LKB1, Sirt1 (which of course are all in reciprocal interaction with AMPK) it probably also works via enhanced degradation of intracellular lipid droplet accumulations, i.e. more lipophagy/autophagy.
Bookmarked for later.Edit: Papain's bound to be biphasic, though, with sub-baseline inhibition past an initial bell curve: Intraarticular injection of papain is how they experimentally induce osteoarthritis and that seems to last beyond immediate enzymatic effects.
And with coronaviruses they describe papain-like proteases being responsible for profound lipophagy/autophagy inhibition.
-> Mechanism of action for the positive findings unclear.
Hormetic stimulation at small doses in healthy animals/tissues/circumstances?
Although the beneficial doses about 10mg/mL (ie c. 1% concentration) in the study above are not particularly small at all? -
fwiw @Mauritio I dont read your twitter stuff because twitter is le gay and doesn't let me scroll properly without an account which requires a phone number and etc etc which is super gehy so maybe you can post ur stuff on a substack or smth idk whatever
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@CrumblingCookie thanks for sharing.
Isn't that because it's a protease, so in sufficient amounts it would digest the protein/cartilage there ?
I think some people report stomach issues when eating too much papaya/papain but only after some time. Maybe it has a similar effect on the intestines.
Viruses need proteases to multiply, so it could have a pro-viral effect ?Also anybody: don't eat the seeds. It's touted as an anti-mircrobial, but it also messes with your hormones . I tried it and didn't feel well for 2 days.
It do like papaya and it seemes to help with constipation/cholestasis.
Next I'll try papain.Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr -
this nigga ate a couple papaya seeds and was ill for two days
reminds me of this quote:
All men have a fire that burns inside of them.
For some it's a fierce flame, the sort that burn 3000kcal a day just by existing.
Men with these flames are the true gigachads, the ones who can enjoy life to the fullest. Everything comes free to them, unlimited energy, great looks, physical prowess, big dicks, charisma, innate skill, vigor, optimism, wealth, opportunity of all kinds etc.
These men are what all men want to be, but sadly most never get to experience such a life.For most men have weak little flames, the ones that burn very frugally. They don't consume much energy which is why they're prone to becoming skinnyfat. Thin little limbs and a big round belly that retains fuel forever since so little is used in a day.
The permanent "survival mode", born out of inner fear. Peasant genetics really. These men will commonly try to better their lives but they find it's a very steep climb. "I'm trying but I just got no energy" they'll say. They're always tired, always feeling ill, always apathetic towards everything.
It's obvious to all bystanders and it instinctively repulses them as lepers do. Women want nothing to do with these hollow husks of men, those who cannot enjoy life.
They're not interested in a smart guy who will live life as efficiently as possible, they want a wild card who isn't afraid of anything. The sort of guy who thinks "New York, sounds like fun!" rather than snorting and citing crime statistics.Basically, the reason why many women like n****rs is because their flames burn a little stronger than the average civilized man's does.
They're not scared of doing what they like, they're going outside and interacting with the world rather than cooping up indoors and observing life from a safe distance. -
@sunsunsun my posts aren't super organized. I post some stuff here, some stuff on X, a lot of stuff on both.
But I was thinking about making a substack, because X users don't seem to be willing to read more than 2 sentences.Dare to think.
My X:
x.com/Metabolicmonstr
