No meat/ vegetarian thread
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I have been doing a no-meat (all types) diet for a half year now. Eggs, milk products that are tolerated, bread, greens, small amount of fruit, coke. My energy is better and more stable. My theory is the benefits are largely due to a lower strain on the kidneys (phosphorus, purines). Long-lasting health issues might originate from bad kidney health, maybe after a carnivore experiment or similar high-meat diet. What is your opinion, and what is your experience with reducing meat in the diet?
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@foxgelb said in No meat/ vegetarian thread:
What is your opinion, and what is your experience with reducing meat in the diet?
Reducing, yes.
Avoid for a period when detoxifying, with other good sources (amino acid profile), yes.
Otherwise, you live on one's bodily reserves.
A girl won't be able to procreate, a boy to get optimal "abilities".
Problem with hormone, not only
Not always but very often, after +/ 5 years.
Mind vitamin B12, iron, and zinc.
Mind Yo-yo too.
And don't think you're going to loose weight where you want it ... -
@foxgelb
I feel good when I avoid meat. Cheesy meal leave me feeler more satisfied and less heavy or lethargic afterwards, probably an inflammation thing. It also easier to have a better Ca:P ratio without putting too much thought into it as long as you're not eating tons of bread. -
I've askes ChatGPT to develop one or 2 points, as I wasn't "clear" enough.
I've oriented the debate.Can You Safely Give Up Meat?
Reducing or even avoiding meat for a limited period — especially during a detox or transition phase — can be managed without immediate health risks, provided that you carefully balance your intake of essential amino acids, vitamins, and minerals from other sources.
However, maintaining a meat-free diet over the long term is more complex than it may seem.- Humans Are Omnivores — for a Reason
Our physiology is adapted to a mixed diet. While it’s possible to meet the recommended protein intake (around 0.8 g/kg of body weight) through non-meat sources, doing so consistently without nutrient deficiencies requires planning, variety, and often supplementation. - The Protein Challenge Without Meat
• Eggs: Often relied on for high-quality protein, but should ideally be limited to 4–6 per week due to potential immune sensitivities (immune reactions).
• Legumes: Rich in protein, but contain anti-nutrients (e.g. lectins, phytates) that hinder mineral absorption. Unless properly prepared (soaked, sprouted, fermented), tolerance can become an issue.
• Dairy: Can help (e.g. hard cheeses, cottage cheese, yogurt), but lactose tolerance varies, and overreliance may strain digestion or alter the gut microbiome. - Monotony and Carb Overload
A vegan diet often leans heavily on carbohydrate-dense foods (grains, legumes, fruits). Unless carefully structured, macronutrient balance can shift toward >55% carbohydrates, especially if protein sources are limited. This can:
• Lead to energy crashes, cravings, and yo-yo dieting
• Make targeted fat loss (e.g. abdominal fat) more difficult
• Increase risk of metabolic imbalances over time, with impact on hormones. - Micronutrient Deficiencies – A Ticking Clock
Even with variety, most people will face deficiencies within a few years unless they supplement wisely:
• Vitamin B12: Not present in plant foods; deficiency affects energy, mood, nerve health, and fertility.
• Zinc: Crucial for immune function, skin, hormones — often low in plant-based diets due to poor bioavailability.
• Iron: Non-heme iron (from plants) is poorly absorbed, especially problematic for menstruating women. Blood tests every 6 months are recommended. - The Hormonal Trade-Off
If protein intake (quality and quantity) declines too far, the body begins to draw from its reserves — muscle tissue, mineral stores, and fat-soluble nutrients. After a certain threshold, the endocrine system compensates.
This doesn’t happen overnight, but often within 3–5 years, especially without professional guidance. - What’s the Solution?
• Yes, you can reduce or avoid meat, but it should be done mindfully, not ideologically.
• Work with a nutritional therapist, ideally with lab support (bloodwork every 6–12 months), to monitor key nutrients.
• Supplement wisely, don’t just “hope” plants will cover it all.
• Don’t ignore physical signs (after an improvement period, energy fluctuates, irritability, libido changes).
Can You Give Up Meat Without Harming Your Hormones?
You can reduce or avoid meat for a while, but if you go long-term without properly balancing your diet, your hormonal system is likely to take a hit — often within a few years.
Here’s why:-
Protein quality affects hormone production.
=> Impact on fertility, muscles, stress recovering, stable mood and energy. -
Micronutrients essential for hormone balance are at risk.
Even if protein is “covered,” several key nutrients that support your endocrine system are often lacking:
• Vitamin B12: Without it, the body can't produce red blood cells efficiently, and nervous system function — including neurotransmitter balance and mood regulation — suffers.
• Zinc: Required for testosterone production and ovarian function. It's harder to absorb from plant foods due to phytates.
• Iron: Women especially may experience fatigue, cold sensitivity, and thyroid imbalance.
• Cholesterol: Demonized in the past, but it’s the raw material for all steroid hormones. A very low-fat or low-cholesterol diet can disrupt hormone synthesis. Need 20 % minimum from calories intake. -
Hormonal symptoms often appear gradually.
Many who cut out meat feel good at first. But over time — usually 3 to 5 years — deficiencies accumulate, especially without supplements and bloodwork.
Typical signs include:
• Irregular menstrual cycles, PMS, or infertility (in women)
• Lower libido and reduced testosterone (in men)
• Poor recovery from stress, fatigue, low motivation
• Hair thinning, dry skin, sleep issues, and mood swings -
The endocrine system can't run on "reserves" forever.
At first, your body compensates by tapping into stored nutrients and shifting metabolic priorities. But once those reserves run low, hormone output declines — often silently at first.
If you're under stress, training hard, or not sleeping well, the impact shows up faster.
Bottom line:
If you want to go meat-free, don’t guess. Work with a practitioner, monitor blood levels (B12, ferritin, zinc, thyroid), and be ready to supplement and adjust. Do not wait (be attentive to a lower regime / carburation).
Hormonal health is delicate — and harder to fix than to preserve. - Humans Are Omnivores — for a Reason
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@LucH In many of Ray's actual recommendations for diet, he usually talks about cheese, milk and eggs but I don't think I ever saw him recommending someone eat meat as a staple (except liver and oysters occasionally).
Despite this, he seemed to eat a good deal of meat all throughout his life and even said once that good thyroid function promotes an appetite for animal proteins (he listed ham and eggs).
When asked about what is lacking from a "vegitarian" diet (I think Ray considered the term vegitarian to mean vegan) his main concern was calcium, from lack of milk.I ask you @LucH, do you think that meat qualifies as a good staple for general human health? Would a dairy focused diet not provide enough B12, with non-heme iron and zinc coming from plant foods and eggs?
As for myself @foxgelb I have greatly reduced my overall meat intake from 2023. I can't say that it has done my any favours however as I am noticeably fatter than 2 years ago and my dental health has seriously declined in those past 2 years. I think ruminant meat should be part of a good balanced diet, based on my experience.
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@foxgelb said in No meat/ vegetarian thread:
I have been doing a no-meat (all types) diet for a half year now. Eggs, milk products that are tolerated, bread, greens, small amount of fruit, coke. My energy is better and more stable. My theory is the benefits are largely due to a lower strain on the kidneys (phosphorus, purines). Long-lasting health issues might originate from bad kidney health, maybe after a carnivore experiment or similar high-meat diet. What is your opinion, and what is your experience with reducing meat in the diet?
I’ve done many versions of vegetarianism and 100% plant-based—was vegetarian and vegan for more than 20 years combined—as well as meat-based diets, including carnivore (both cooked and raw), and to this day, I feel my most energized and have the most stable blood sugar, i.e., no more hypoglycemic episodes, on a meat-free (and low-starch) diet. I kept meat (shellfish) in my diet for trace minerals, but had some successful food trials with plant sources so my diet is currently meat-free, and lower in protein overall, and I feel that much better for it. So many improvements…
During one of my many iterations of 100% plant-based, I followed Dr. Robert Morse’s protocol, which had a strong focus on kidney function and filtration (the diastolic BP reflects kidney strength). I collected my urine daily to inspect it for sediment and I saw no difference in filtration while following a fruitarian diet versus a carnivore diet, however, my creatinine level was much higher on carnivore, but it never went above range. My grandmother’s chronic kidney disease was reversed while following Dr. Morse’s protocol so reducing protein in general can be helpful for some conditions, IME.
I have stood on a mountain of no’s for one yes. ~ B. Smith
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@Jennifer said in No meat/ vegetarian thread:
I’ve done many versions of vegetarianism and 100% plant-based—was vegetarian and vegan for more than 20 years combined—as well as meat-based diets, including carnivore (both cooked and raw), and to this day, I feel my most energized and have the most stable blood sugar, i.e., no more hypoglycemic episodes, on a meat-free (and low-starch) diet. I kept meat (shellfish) in my diet for trace minerals, but had some successful food trials with plant sources so my diet is currently meat-free, and lower in protein overall, and I feel that much better for it. So many improvements…
Interesting and convincing description. It would be nice one day to report on how you were able to maintain/preserve a balance of macronutrients, electrolytes, and micronutrients, without overloading with milk / dairy to compensate.
This would help avoiding any excesses. We can function perfectly well without eating meat every day. "Moderate" is the key word here. RP ate seafood, oysters, I think, to obtain certain trace elements...
As long as we don't just increase the starchy portion, and include plenty of fruits and vegetables (with a variety of polyphenols), preferably in season, except for non-tropical countries (lack of diversity), this could work well, if we mind excess phytates and oxalates.
You just have to listen to your body, especially after 2 to 3 years (reserves exhausted). After a "euphoric" period (energy boost), you may need to adapt. And not by eating eggs every day or drinking 2 liters of milk.
But here, I'm not going to make everyone agree. Go with your feelings, keep an open mind, and your senses alert
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I have had long periods where I have not eaten so much meat at all, the occasional liver once a month. Think I went a bit low in iron since I was mainly consuming dairy products and fruit.
Meat is very tasty, let's not forget that. A good, juicy steak is very palatable.
Now I try to follow my cravings. I think that's a good thing to start with.
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@Jennifer I am also feeling really good as of recently doing a mostly meat-free, starch-free diet. Ill typically have 3-4 quarts of milk, coffee (decaf later in the day), gelatin, orange juice, honey, ice cream, and ripe stone fruits (peaches, plums, nectarines) and about a dozen oysters once a week. Big starch + salt + phosphate rich protein meals (high in insulin) can cause side effects like heart palpitations, overstimulation, hypoglycemia, muscle tension for me. Using too much caffeine and thyroid (T4/T3) began to cause similar effects for me but if I avoid meat and starch I can tolerate much more thyroid and feel much more stabilized.
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@LucH said in No meat/ vegetarian thread:
You just have to listen to your body, especially after 2 to 3 years (reserves exhausted). After a "euphoric" period (energy boost), you may need to adapt. And not by eating eggs every day or drinking 2 liters of milk.
Absolutely. And not confusing adrenaline with thyroid hormone. It’s easy to mistake the energy boost one gets from adrenaline for good thyroid function. That’s why I use more objective diagnostics like temps (including temps of feet, hands, nose and ears), pulse rate and evaporation rate (how much liquid consumed in a 24 hr period is sweat out vs peed out) in conjunction with just as important but more subjective stats as “feels” when optimizing diet and health.
My previous diet was dairy-based—I averaged 2–3 liters of milk daily for almost 6 years—and I did a lot of healing during that time, but I needed to adjust my macros, i.e., reduce my protein and increase my fat intake, after the tragic event of my mum’s passing—she suffocated to death in my arms from a pulmonary embolism—and my dad’s cancer diagnosis two years later—I’m his caregiver. The stress suppressed my thyroid—even doubling my thyroid dose had no effect—and I was having daily anxiety attacks from residual PTSD surrounding the event, and meat, in particular, was causing hypoglycemia and triggering them. I’m not sure how much seafood Ray ate, but he recommended having it once a week. I’m doing well using a variety of mushrooms for trace minerals and have used them successfully in the past, as well.
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@serotoninskeptic said in No meat/ vegetarian thread:
@Jennifer I am also feeling really good as of recently doing a mostly meat-free, starch-free diet. Ill typically have 3-4 quarts of milk, coffee (decaf later in the day), gelatin, orange juice, honey, ice cream, and ripe stone fruits (peaches, plums, nectarines) and about a dozen oysters once a week. Big starch + salt + phosphate rich protein meals (high in insulin) can cause side effects like heart palpitations, overstimulation, hypoglycemia, muscle tension for me. Using too much caffeine and thyroid (T4/T3) began to cause similar effects for me but if I avoid meat and starch I can tolerate much more thyroid and feel much more stabilized.
This is so great to hear! It really is such a healing diet. Are you still saving your protein for your evening meal or are you having it during the day, as well? Raw milk would still be a staple of mine if it didn’t require an extra stop each week. I’m already having to go to 3 stores to get my dad’s and my groceries because we eat differently, and I would rather use the time I would spend driving to the farm for milk, out on the local rail trail instead. It does more for my health than any one specific food ever could. No exaggeration—it saved my life.
I have stood on a mountain of no’s for one yes. ~ B. Smith
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@Jennifer I find the discernement between running on adrenaline or thyroid is with thyroid I have peace of mind. Inner peace. Unshakable calmness.
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@Jennifer Ive moved away from restricting protein until later in the day. During the low protein part of the day, my heart rate would get super high on thyroid, constantly >100 while resting. This gave me a bit of anxiety, almost a manic feeling. Nearly had panic attacks. Whenever I had casein protein (from milk/yogurt) the anxiety would immediately stop. To mitigate stress, I ended the sugar phase early, and overate protein + ice cream. Ive found that having protein/fats/carbs at all my meals is very health-stabilizing as long as the protein and fat is coming from raw dairy.
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@heyman, exactly. The unshakable calmness. With thyroid, the energetic state is one of calmness, like I have all the time in the world, even like time doesn’t exist, much like what I felt when I was a child, and with adrenaline, the energetic state is one of restlessness, a feeling like time is running out.
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@serotoninskeptic, gotcha. I experienced the same thing when having too little, too much and the wrong type of protein (all but dairy) for my constitution. Most people I’ve communicated with regarding health fare best long-term getting ample protein, fat and carbs at every meal so I understand. I, myself, find mixed meals way more enjoyable, which I believe to be essential for healing. Every meal of mine must elicit a happy wiggle or it’s out.
