Concentric only exercises
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ray peat just said study of old people only did concentric exercises against some resistance and their mitochondria restored effectively younger mitochondria.
Thoughts on this?
https://raypeatinterviews.s3.us-east-005.backblazeb2.com/11.16.20+Peat+Ray+[930557059].mp3
1:02:44
- ray peat talking about the study
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P pilky moved this topic from Bioenergetics Discussion on
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The concentric part seems to cause more "metabolic stress", while the eccentric part seems to cause more muscle damage. So I believe that reducing muscle damage (focusing on the concentric) makes more resources available for the metabolic stimulus because there is no longer a competition for resources between the stimulus and the damage.
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Climbing(in- or outdoor), swimming. But not frequently. A big factor is the amount of fun you're having. Walking is the best daily type of exercise. Ray thought other exercise was mostly harmful, and never did it.
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@raypneat Very cool. The recumbent bike at planet fitness used as steady state cardio limited to 45 minutes a session will pump you with billions of new mitochondria. Combined with progressive overloading, I think it might be the most peatiest exercise machine.
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Assault bike, rowing machine and sled pushing are three exercises that can be done in many gyms. All concentric.
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@tea The recumbent bike is less stressful on your joints and you can rest your back on the seat. Cardio sessions aren't meant to be as stressful. Cardio that can be done while having a conversation is the goal. You can increase the level to reach horse cocking power, but I usually leave it at level 4.
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@mentun i didn't know much about that machine. thank you.
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@TexugoDoMel I've followed Peter Attia for a while before discovering Ray Peat, and Attia said something like old people lose their "breaks" i.e. eccentric strength first (following off the stairs as a common cause of death, etc), so it's more important to incorporate eccentric mov't into training. What are your thoughts on this? I'm quite new to Ray Peat and hoping to learn more about how to exercise properly.
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@TexugoDoMel So training for concentric strength should also lead to gains in eccentric strength as well?
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Good question. Concentric strength training will improve eccentric strength as you are improving the muscle. Same goes for training an eccentric program, it will benefit your concentric strength. The question is the effect of concentric vs eccentric training.
Old people "lose their brakes" because they lose reflex speed. Muscles are stronger in the eccentric, so it's likely more to do with reflex than strength. I'd also add that many old people struggle with unfamiliar terrain or places that put them in an awkward position without stabilization. Reflexes and stabilization can all be trained and maintained through exercise.
Eccentric training has been linked with reduced activity of cytochrome oxidase(important for mitochondria health) and reduced BDNF(brain-derived neurotropic factor).
Concentric exercise improves mitochondrial function, eccentric exercise causes damage to mitochondria by raising Reactive Oxygen Species(no good).
From Peat-
“The brain’s role in protecting against injury by stress, when it sees a course of action, has a parallel in the differences between concentric (positive, muscle shortening) and eccentric (negative, lengthening under tension) exercise, and also with the differences between innervated and denervated muscles. In eccentric exercise and denervation, less oxygen is used and less carbon dioxide is produced, while lactic acid increases, displacing carbon dioxide, and more fat is oxidized. Prolonged stress similarly decreases carbon dioxide and increases lactate, while increasing the use of fat.” -
Eur J Appl Physiol. 2012 Apr;112(4):1587-92. Epub 2011 Jul 14.
Similar increases in muscle size and strength in young men after training with maximal shortening or lengthening contractions when matched for total work.
Moore DR, Young M, Phillips SM."Training exclusively with eccentric (lengthening) contractions can result in greater muscular adaptations than training with concentric (shortening) contractions. We aimed to determine whether training-induced increases in muscle size and strength differed between muscles performing maximal lengthening (LC) or maximal shortening (SC) contractions when total external work is equivalent. Nine healthy young males completed a 9-week isokinetic (0.79 rad/s) resistance training program of the elbow flexors whereby they performed LC with one arm and an equivalent volume of total external work with the contralateral arm as SC. Training increased isometric peak torque for both LC (~10%) and SC (~20%) with no difference (P = 0.14) between conditions. There were also similar increases in isokinetic peak torque at both slow (0.79 rad/s) and fast (5.24 rad/s) shortening and lengthening peak torque for both LC (~8-10%) and SC (~9-20%). Training increased work per repetition similarly for both LC (~17%) and SC (~22%), in spite of ~40% greater work per repetition with LC. The increase in muscle cross-sectional area with training was also similar (P = 0.37) between LC (~6.5%) and SC (~4.6%). We conclude that increases in muscle size and strength with short-term unilateral resistance training are unrelated to muscle contraction type when matched for both exercise intensity (i.e. maximal contractions) and total external work."
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@JulofEnoch I see! So strength increase is independent of the type of contraction, but eccentric training have the added downside of mimicking stress (no good). And old people likely fall because they lose their reflexes, not strength, so all the more reason to do concentric training and improve mitochondrial / metabolic health.
Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.
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@JulofEnoch Dang. I totally fell for that "Ray Peat recovered interview(July 1987 on UofO Student Radio)" link. Well played.
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@raypneat One thing to keep in mind is that increased muscle mass is beneficial to a higher metabolism. So its arguably worthwhile to do bodybuilder programs short-term, for instance, to gain muscle mass, and then seek to retain it long-term in more healthy ways for longevity. I'm sure its possible to build muscle mass with concentric-only exercise, but it seems much less straightforward and thus many people may drop out or never pursue it, which is overall a probably worse outcome.
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@araclavie said in Concentric only exercises:
@TexugoDoMel I've followed Peter Attia for a while before discovering Ray Peat, and Attia said something like old people lose their "breaks" i.e. eccentric strength first (following off the stairs as a common cause of death, etc), so it's more important to incorporate eccentric mov't into training. What are your thoughts on this? I'm quite new to Ray Peat and hoping to learn more about how to exercise properly.
I think that for an older person you want to focus (or should) on a stimulus that is strong enough to generate adaptations but weak enough not to cause too much muscle damage, since an old person doesn't have the same metabolic vigor as a young person (for this reason aspirin hinders the gains of a young person but helps the gains of an old person), and that's why the emphasis on the concentric is the most appropriate, even more so if you consider the most current studies that it's not physical movement that causes muscle damage, but that muscle damage is "caused by inflammation" (calcium ion-related fatigue).
I agree with @JulofEnoch that it's more of a reflex thing combined with general muscle weakness. You also don't have to completely eliminate eccentric movements.
@araclavie said in Concentric only exercises:
@TexugoDoMel So training for concentric strength should also lead to gains in eccentric strength as well?
Yes, because in both concentric and eccentric movements you are using the actin-myosin myofilaments, and the production of force in this case happens in the "same way".
The advantage of the eccentric movement compared to the concentric in relation to your question is that the force in the concentric part is predominantly a result of the actin-myosin cross-bridges, whereas in the eccentric part you have the action of the "active" actin-myosin cross-bridges AND the "passive part" titin.
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@araclavie eccentric exercise is needed for hypertrophy (damages muscle through micro tears for it to grow) and can help with lengthening the muscle tissue.
From peaty point of view, one would want to avoid this stress and therefore use Concentric for more strength gain relative to muscle growth.
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Is intercourse concentric only?
Put yourself on fire for peak energy metabolism.
Ignore, judge, overcommit.
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Benefits of avoiding eccentric / concentric only:
-(?) younger mitochondriaNegatives of avoiding eccentric:
-have to vastly reduce your exercise selection
-less gainz
-DYEL?regular concentric/eccentric bodybuilding training contains best of both worlds, youre getting hypertrophy and also all the benefits of concentric. Lets see you grow big biceps while avoiding eccentric training, its practically impossible unless you want to drop your barbells or dumbells after every rep. in fact if you look at what all the top oldschool bodybuilders say is to "control the eccentric"
watch this video of arnold doing biceps curls,
https://www.instagram.com/p/C3f4hRGsQIO/hes putting way more effort into the concentric and hes merely controlling the eccentric, he's not really fighting against it, hes not trying to slow the negative portion. this is how all the oldschool legends trained. All the internet fitness gurus who tell you to "fight the eccentric" and to "spend more time in the eccentric" actually have no idea how the golden era and best looking bodybuilders trained, all the emphasis was put on the concentric.
breakfast for dinner enjoyer
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Yes, barring specific positions.
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Hypertrophy between concentric and eccentric seems to be basically the same when you match the mechanical tension. What's different is the type of hypertrophy (diameter vs. fiber length). So I would add:
Benefits of avoiding eccentric / concentric only
-Less muscle damage, so you can exercise more days, recovery is very fast and you don't have to divide muscle protein synthesis too much between hypertrophy and muscle repair(not the same thing).
-Same hypertrophy potential(but in a different way)
-Apparently reset of repeated bout effectBut I agree if you approach it in the standard mindset of 6-8 reps or more per set you'll look weird and it's quite difficult.
As my background is in Olympic lifting and I always liked working with singles/doubles, it was quite easy to apply. The same results or better compared to my colleagues at the time without getting too debilitated
